COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.

At Simucon I questioned whether COL would be reviewed for update.

The response was fairly clear they felt it was not balanced today, and was told we wouldn't want to see a review. Meaning they'd nurf it.

What I've specifically gathered from this through speaking with players is that wracking is OP and would be nurfed and players would be very unhappy.

As a gamer I'm more interested in game balance, and so for the record, I am calling for a COL review.

Breath some life into it rather than nurf it. If there is a mechanic that is so unbalancing they don't want to move forward then there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

So many signs in COL are utterly useless, this society needs a revamp.

They'd also want to nerf the duration of the signs. Make it far more micromanagey.

It's really a non issue with Lich scripts etc. I'm much more interested in good game mechanics.

Relatively a non-issue, but reapplication of signs/sigils/symbols just sucks and delays other attacks/management/whatnots of the continuity of attacking. Setting/forgetting a 16m duration sign is wonderful, and I'm not going to be stuck with 3 simultaneous griffin cries for 20 years worth of roundtime, and see my DS drop by 5000 because my signs/sigils/symbols all decided to drop while stuck in ridiculous.

While yes, scripts make them not big deals, the lower the duration, the higher the likelihood of going without them due to RT, and reduced overall uptime.

I would almost prefer if something like GOS was a series of martial stances where max mana/stamina was reduced rather than reapplying the sigils, just because it's one less thing to worry about/manage/etc.

I'd rather them separate the mechanical review of CoL and simply do a roleplay-based one to reinvent/modernize the society.

You can only piss off so many of your customers per year. 2017 was wizards. I'd rather 2018 not be all wracking pures/semis.

I feel the 'constant management' of societal sigils/signs/symbols is a mistaken direction.

Id much rather have it where having the sigil or sign up RESERVES a portion of your mana/stamina, meaning it lowers its max, and you dont have to keep updating it. Cause theres no reason for that shit. It doesnt add to 'fun' or 'strategy' for your basic sigils/symbols to constantly be needing to be reapplied. It just makes things tedious.

@crime said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

It's really a non issue with Lich scripts etc. I'm much more interested in good game mechanics.

For you, perhaps, but for others I can see durations being much more about resources. Few would want to see that.

@evarin said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

I'd rather them separate the mechanical review of CoL and simply do a roleplay-based one to reinvent/modernize the society.

You can only piss off so many of your customers per year. 2017 was wizards. I'd rather 2018 not be all wracking pures/semis.

I agree. I'd love to more openly be able to speak about how haughty and amazing I am in my Council of Light. It's a wonderus society driven towards the light, and pretty much just makes everyone Paladins. ... I really ought to read quest text a little more too.

@whirlin said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

@evarin said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

I'd rather them separate the mechanical review of CoL and simply do a roleplay-based one to reinvent/modernize the society.

You can only piss off so many of your customers per year. 2017 was wizards. I'd rather 2018 not be all wracking pures/semis.

I agree. I'd love to more openly be able to speak about how haughty and amazing I am in my Council of Light. It's a wonderus society driven towards the light, and pretty much just makes everyone Paladins. ... I really ought to read quest text a little more too.

Suggesting they nerf CoL is one of the worst things you can do. Find something else to ruin.

@crime said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

It's really a non issue with Lich scripts etc. I'm much more interested in good game mechanics.

Even with lich scripts, it would be a big deal for the spirit signs to have a significantly shorter duration.

The replies suggest you all know what they'd do to COL. They seem a bit curt and lack of consideration for moving the game forward. I can see why the devs have such a hard time evolving Gemstone at times.

A review might yield entirely unexpected results. Give the GM's some credit for foresight and game design.

I like CoL! I never use some of the signs, but I joined at level 3 and have never looked back. It would be cool to have some underground RP content added. Each town could have a secret gathering area for members.

@crime said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

The replies suggest you all know what they'd do to COL. They seem a bit curt and lack of consideration for moving the game forward. I can see why the devs have such a hard time evolving Gemstone at times.

A review might yield entirely unexpected results. Give the GM's some credit for foresight and game design.

It was clearly stated they would nerf CoL in the form of "You wouldn't like what we would do".

Just stop.

If you're not happy with CoL, join a different society.

A nerf makes zero sense; the society is already balanced, especially in contrast with a buffed Voln. How is wracking too powerful? If your combat is AS-focused, you can't wrack during battle without gimping yourself. If you ward, you can wrack in battle without CS penalty, but the tradeoff is there are no signs that increase your CS. And the most grossly OP caster class there is -- DE -- has the worst spirit regen.

One thing I do want for CoL is for signs to be refreshable. Currently you can't use them while they're active to top off the durations.

Aside from a mechanical review, it would be nice for someone to take on some additional RP with CoL - perhaps Kenstrom could integrate the society into a storyline? There's just so much potential. I know that players like @Ordim have tried to revive CoL RP, but it seems like it would require some GM intervention to kick start anything like that.

@maylan said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

Aside from a mechanical review, it would be nice for someone to take on some additional RP with CoL - perhaps Kenstrom could integrate the society into a storyline? There's just so much potential. I know that players like @Ordim have tried to revive CoL RP, but it seems like it would require some GM intervention to kick start anything like that.

May I just say, that I find that sad that it'd require GMs to revive an interest in a thing as interesting as CoL could be? I think it speaks poorly of the state of the playerbase that Player Initiated RP and Storylines are just straight up ignored by most.

Theres some talent out there! Dont only RP or try to develop/drive storylines when the GMs about guys.

@alastir

@alastir said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

@crime said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

The replies suggest you all know what they'd do to COL. They seem a bit curt and lack of consideration for moving the game forward. I can see why the devs have such a hard time evolving Gemstone at times.

A review might yield entirely unexpected results. Give the GM's some credit for foresight and game design.

It was clearly stated they would nerf CoL in the form of "You wouldn't like what we would do".

Just stop.

If you're not happy with CoL, join a different society.

You're very narrow minded on this. It's not about me it's about COL dating back to the 90s as is. It's time for a revamp.

Stop trying to make it a personal issue. I've been Voln in the day, and COL now, and frankly I believe it could benefit from a review / revamp. That simple.

If I took everyone's first response I wouldn't have got as far in this world as I have, and if I listened more I might even get further, and think the same is true for you.

You might like what they do, or are you so fixated with how things are now that you can't envision a better future? Well I think we all know this answer...

@hjfudge said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

@maylan said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

Aside from a mechanical review, it would be nice for someone to take on some additional RP with CoL - perhaps Kenstrom could integrate the society into a storyline? There's just so much potential. I know that players like @Ordim have tried to revive CoL RP, but it seems like it would require some GM intervention to kick start anything like that.

May I just say, that I find that sad that it'd require GMs to revive an interest in a thing as interesting as CoL could be? I think it speaks poorly of the state of the playerbase that Player Initiated RP and Storylines are just straight up ignored by most.

Theres some talent out there! Dont only RP or try to develop/drive storylines when the GMs about guys.

@maylan I have an idea I've been kicking around to get back to this. It would have been nice if Lydil or Kenstrom picked up on the direction we were going but that's ok. I'll try and get something together before the end of the year if there is interest. I'll leave this here... If i were to start posting about something completely different, you may want to jump on board.

@ordim said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

@hjfudge said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

@maylan said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

Aside from a mechanical review, it would be nice for someone to take on some additional RP with CoL - perhaps Kenstrom could integrate the society into a storyline? There's just so much potential. I know that players like @Ordim have tried to revive CoL RP, but it seems like it would require some GM intervention to kick start anything like that.

May I just say, that I find that sad that it'd require GMs to revive an interest in a thing as interesting as CoL could be? I think it speaks poorly of the state of the playerbase that Player Initiated RP and Storylines are just straight up ignored by most.

Theres some talent out there! Dont only RP or try to develop/drive storylines when the GMs about guys.

@maylan I have an idea I've been kicking around to get back to this. It would have been nice if Lydil or Kenstrom picked up on the direction we were going but that's ok. I'll try and get something together before the end of the year if there is interest. I'll leave this here... If i were to start posting about something completely different, you may want to jump on board.

If you do something CoL related RP wise, my Prime character, Nehor, is definitely ALL IN on this man. Just saying.

@crime said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

@alastir

@alastir said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

@crime said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

The replies suggest you all know what they'd do to COL. They seem a bit curt and lack of consideration for moving the game forward. I can see why the devs have such a hard time evolving Gemstone at times.

A review might yield entirely unexpected results. Give the GM's some credit for foresight and game design.

It was clearly stated they would nerf CoL in the form of "You wouldn't like what we would do".

Just stop.

If you're not happy with CoL, join a different society.

You're very narrow minded on this. It's not about me it's about COL dating back to the 90s as is. It's time for a revamp.

Stop trying to make it a personal issue. I've been Voln in the day, and COL now, and frankly I believe it could benefit from a review / revamp. That simple.

If I took everyone's first response I wouldn't have got as far in this world as I have, and if I listened more I might even get further, and think the same is true for you.

You might like what they do, or are you so fixated with how things are now that you can't envision a better future? Well I think we all know this answer...

People often think the grass is greener on the other side, and then reality sets in, and they find out it's not.

If you feel the other societies are so good, join one.

Many people are happy with the abilities that CoL offers, and since it has been clearly stated that they would be nerfed if anything was "revamped" I would like it if you would just move on.

You might not be happy with what the society offers. There are different societies for a reason.

Wracking is OP? I feel like we've gone back in time to 1999.

I have characters in all 3 societies, and I actually find Symbol of Mana a LOT more useful because it doesn't sideline you for a few minutes, and can be used to finish up spellups / top off hunts if I'm low on mana.

OK, well, what do you have in mind for this revamp?

@hjfudge said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

May I just say, that I find that sad that it'd require GMs to revive an interest in a thing as interesting as CoL could be? I think it speaks poorly of the state of the playerbase that Player Initiated RP and Storylines are just straight up ignored by most.

Theres some talent out there! Dont only RP or try to develop/drive storylines when the GMs about guys.

There are problems unique to CoL when it comes to that, though. People can't talk about it publicly, which cuts out lots of RP potential. And I actually don't mean from CoL devotees, who can work around that and speak in vague language about it, but more from the types of characters who would resign and warn others off. There's very limited potential for conflict if everybody not in the Council has to continue not knowing it exists.

Another problem is dealing with people who don't distinguish character and player. For a while I've had an idea for what I think would be an awesomely fun CoL character to RP, but I can't see myself working up the courage to make that character since I can't imagine it going any other way besides getting like a dozen warn interacts in a month. (And no, there would be no CvC involved.) Either that or I'd have to OOC whisper and explain myself, but to me that would ruin the fun.

Eh, the ability to SIGNAL prevents the "can't talk about it public thing." Actually, there's potential there- people reacting to secret sign language and not knowing what's going on while nobody clues them in.

Frankly, both Voln and CoL should have an aspect of GoS in which they're given assignments they need to complete. And I think it would be rather interesting that in CoL, the assignments aren't optional and are of... questionable morality.

@idlewanderlust said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

Frankly, both Voln and CoL should have an aspect of GoS in which they're given assignments they need to complete. And I think it would be rather interesting that in CoL, the assignments aren't optional and are of... questionable morality.

This. One thing I can get onboard with is that there should be an additional reason for a "good" character to feel ill-at-ease in CoL aside from a few throwaway lines from the Pooh-bear. Maybe they force you to go make kitten pie once a month or else lose a rank.

@leafiara said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

@hjfudge said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

May I just say, that I find that sad that it'd require GMs to revive an interest in a thing as interesting as CoL could be? I think it speaks poorly of the state of the playerbase that Player Initiated RP and Storylines are just straight up ignored by most.

Theres some talent out there! Dont only RP or try to develop/drive storylines when the GMs about guys.

There are problems unique to CoL when it comes to that, though. People can't talk about it publicly, which cuts out lots of RP potential. And I actually don't mean from CoL devotees, who can work around that and speak in vague language about it, but more from the types of characters who would resign and warn others off. There's very limited potential for conflict if everybody not in the Council has to continue not knowing it exists.

Another problem is dealing with people who don't distinguish character and player. For a while I've had an idea for what I think would be an awesomely fun CoL character to RP, but I can't see myself working up the courage to make that character since I can't imagine it going any other way besides getting like a dozen warn interacts in a month. (And no, there would be no CvC involved.) Either that or I'd have to OOC whisper and explain myself, but to me that would ruin the fun.

I am...very, very aware of many peoples inability to separate IC from OOC. I have had some issues with that in the past that I shant get into here! Suffice it to say it put the fear of god into me, where I learned that there are people on here that if you do anything to their character in game...if they could? They would find you and literally kill you in real life.

THAT, however, should never scare us or keep us away from being true to our characters and Roleplaying interesting stories.

As to the conflict potential...part of the fun is that true to their nature (as I see it), CoL members would be involved in helping the 'good guys'. They are very much more Behind the Scenes players than 'OOH SPOOKY IN YOUR FACE EVIL'. The powers behind the throne, as it were, manipulating the heroes for unknown and perhaps nefarious purposes.

This is a mechanics forum, not a role play, so the comments relating to IC vs OOC are perhaps a touch off topic. Welcome none the less for the flavor of the game.

As for ideas regarding what do to with COL, frankly I'd leave that up to the GM realm. I can point out the obvious issues today:

Pretty simple, there are many signs that are not used:

Sign of hypnosis, possession, lower level staunch (was very appropriate when spending $6/hr, not so much with Dreaven script to get you to level 20 in the blink of an eye), (regretfully) ESP, hopelessness, and even madness due to the spirit drain and boss mobs not being critable in invasions. Sure one can use their imagination for when one might use some of these, but that's not the overall intent of society skills in Gemstone today. GOS/Voln use all their skills as a matter of regular practice.

Very little purpose to these COL signs now. They don’t apply to today’s game.

A lot of people find CoL pretty mechanically useful. If you do not, there are two other societies you can join. Seems much easier than advocating for a society revamp that most of the rest of the playerbase is not interested in seeing.

I use staunching.

the change is that wracking will only take 1 spirit now and the reason we wont like it is cuz we all pick high aura and spirit regen characters to take advantage and now it'll be taken away

right :o

@idlewanderlust I use staunching all the time, but what about the little stauch, when's the last time you used it? Perhaps the little staunch was much more useful in the 90s, and forgotten about now for the most part? but even that's a stretch, and what exactly is the point of a rank 5 vs a rank 9 that cost the same mana, one is 10 sec the other 20 sec a level?, and do exactly the same thing.

Ditch the all or nothing and provide some in between. Seems 50 mana is the standard, I think thats what you get from GoS from stamina. So 1 spirit for 50 mana, that would be 300 mana for 6 spirit. This would basically be the same or better for anyone pre cap.

Let us not compare societies at this point. Rather let's focus on COL :)

@crime I was just saying that both other societies provide 50 mana for their mana return symbol/sigil. If you want to review the abilities it makes sense they would want to bring it in line with the revamped voln and GoS.

@sabotage said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

Ditch the all or nothing and provide some in between. Seems 50 mana is the standard, I think thats what you get from GoS from stamina. So 1 spirit for 50 mana, that would be 300 mana for 6 spirit. This would basically be the same or better for anyone pre cap.

GoS is 25 mana for 50 stamina. Voln is 50 mana every 5 minutes free, with a deed cost if you want to do it more often.

CoL is fine as is. There's no reason to make each society a mirror of the others.

@taernath I don't really care about CoL, its only on my wizard who bolts. I can't wracking during a hunt without my AS tanking. So I wouldn't actually mind the mana for spirit at a lesser degree. Maybe take one of the duplicate signs and offer that.

Again though if everything else about the sign durations and such have to change, I say just keep it how it is. Add some RP and hope that satisfies everyone.

@sabotage said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

@taernath I don't really care about CoL, its only on my wizard who bolts. I can't wracking during a hunt without my AS tanking. So I wouldn't actually mind the mana for spirit at a lesser degree. Maybe take one of the duplicate signs and offer that.

Again though if everything else about the sign durations and such have to change, I say just keep it how it is. Add some RP and hope that satisfies everyone.

I kind of feel the difference between the mana regaining abilities is supposed to be a reflection of the societies themselves. CoL is high cost, high reward - you use wracking, yeah you get all your mana back, but you suffer a LOT of penalties with reduced spirit. If you introduce a more moderate ability, it really removes some of the character and risk/reward from CoL.

I'm thinking pures mostly care about wracking, everything else is ancillary. I believe that supports a revamp on its own, but to be fair to casters, perhaps they could just revamp the useless signs and leave the good ones =P.

@Crime Their track record for "fixing" things is spotty. It is too hit or miss. Not enough communication of the direction they are headed with changes (until after they are released). Not enough player feedback BEFORE things are released.

Agreed. And as we learned from the wizard changes, it's also absolutely fucking impossible to get a subset of even veteran players to agree on anything ever.

At this point, I'm only still in CoL on my sorcerer (for wracking). Every other char has switched to something else (mainly sunfist).

@archsenex I actually love voln on my sorcerer. I don't mind the mana for coins instead of mana for spirit, and actually prefer it. I can blow thru DR and I never have to worry about mana.

Plus all those nifty utility symbols are just icing on the cake.

@sabotage

I might switch later, actually. I'm still at a point where I frequently have to double wrack, but that may soon be over and then I might switch. I only wrack at DR too, so maybe is time to switch now.

@archsenex Took me 1 weekend in bonespear to go from nothing to master.

@Sabotage that's great feedback.

I don't think we can expect better communication, in fact I might discourage it, I think a gaming company needs independence on something of this scale. Too many cooks in the kitchen when you try to move forward catering to everyone. That said, we could try to encourage an exchange if they put this update on their radar, but I'd want to see their design thoughts first, not the gaming community which is inherently self centered.

I do believe we can expect good things.

The assumption that their track record suggests poor game design is counter protective at best. Just because updates to one thing didn't make the world go right for a specific profession doesn't mean a global society update is going to go south.

Being in a society for ONE SIGN screams UPDATE THE SOCIETY.

Thank you!

@crime I couldn't disagree with you more regarding communication. It leads to being reactive instead of proactive. It doesn't stop the criticism it just delays it until it is released.

Its not a society for one sign, it has the biggest mechanical advantage and it's signs last for days.

Raw numbers are the most important to me... COL is the highest AS/DS benefits of any society. I'd drop billions on +1 AS, why wouldn't I do it with a society?

For RP reasons, or circumventing mechanical benefits, or consolidating clotting/staunching... Those are all good... but I can't recommend a complete overhaul and reanalysis of signs. If we're reviewing at a granular sign by sign level, I don't understand why overhauling COL would be more beneficial than just establishing a new society. Replacing can only add drama, problems with player bases when something is replaced that they want, etc.

There's also an assumption in here that all things need to be equally viable. Hello to you, Whip-Blades. Some things are simply better/worse than others for various reasons, AvDs versus DFs, etc. Not all societies need to have high RP value or a bounty board/etc.

@whirlin said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

Not all societies need to have high RP value or a bounty board/etc.

I disagree with this statement. Above all, there should be a focus on roleplay for any major mechanics feature, especially as large as a society. It doesn't need to be roleplay suitable for all characters, but it should definitely be a major focus of development.

While I agree mechanically with what Whirlin just said, I disagree on the basis that CoL has some of the most potentially interesting RP available to it in the entire game. It's a secret society with spies everywhere that can send dark assassins after anybody who dares mention it. Where else in Gemstone can you get that? That's awesome.

While mechanically, yeah, it seems fine, if a little bland, the reason I would say it's ripe for an overhaul, beyond a few tweaks and replacements of skills/mechanics (Non-stackable stuff, I'm looking at you. I wanna stack my timers), for RP reasons. It's awesome. Or could be. But the reality over the years as Voln was overhauled and Sunfist was released is that CoL is simply the "path of least resistance build" for your easiest bonuses to time invested ratio.

@Sabotage That's fine to disagree, but I'd rather see what they come up with first is really my point.

As to the original post, the "You don't want that. We'll nerf you" seems more like a cop-out to me than anything else, at best. At worst, a threat to make you stop asking for something that interests you. CoL isn't that far out of balance with the others in most ways. Yeah, staunching is basically 1 mana to never bleeding again ever, but if the entire society were more engaging, I doubt anyone anywhere would complain about a tweak to make it work a little less effectively. I doubt too many people would complain if wracking were tweaked either, so long as the society became more engaging. Wracking already has plenty of drawbacks. Focus it in, tweak it some, make it potentially useful for more people, whatever.

@crime said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

@Sabotage That's fine to disagree, but I'd rather see what they come up with first is really my point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXGL9NEbqXA

@Crime I would rather see their ideas before it is released, that was my point.

If we want to get into the weeds, lets take a look at the signs and see what we can come up with.

1 Sign of Recognition Allows the character to identify other members and their relative ranks. - Seems fine to me.

2 Signal Use sign language to communicate with other society members in the room. - Would be nice to see RP verbs added for CoL only members.

3 Sign of Warding +5 to DS. 1 0 Invoked 10 sec/level - Short of a base duration change, I think this is fine.

4 Sign of Striking +5 to AS. 1 0 Invoked 10 sec/level - Short of a base duration change, I think this is fine.

5 Sign of Clotting Stops all bleeding. 1 0 Invoked 10 sec/level - Redundant with Staunching. Should be removed or replaced entirely.

6 Sign of Thought Gives the same effect as rubbing a crystal amulet. 1 0 Invoked - Seems fine.

7 Sign of Defending +10 to DS. 2 0 Invoked 10 sec/level - Short of a base duration change, seems fine.

8 Sign of Smiting +10 to AS. 2 0 Invoked 10 sec/level - Short of a base duration change, seems fine.

9 Sign of Staunching Stops all bleeding. 1 0 Invoked 20 sec/level - Combine with clotting, otherwise very useful.

10 Sign of Deflection Adds +20 to Bolt DS. 3 0 Invoked 10 sec/level - Short of a base duration change, seems fine.

11 Sign of Hypnosis Calms a random target with a hidden warding check. 0 1 Invoked Variable - Would change to a system where you can charm certain creatures for a set amount of time. Would no longer be hostile unless attacked, instead attack others. Cost could vary by target type/level.

12 Sign of Swords Adds +20 to AS. 0 1 Dissipates 10 sec/level - Possible base duration change, otherwise fine.

13 Sign of Shields Adds +20 to DS. 0 1 Dissipates 10 sec/level - Possible base duration change, otherwise fine.

14 Sign of Dissipation Adds +15 to TD. 0 1 Dissipates 10 sec/level - Possible base duration change, otherwise fine.

15 Sign of Healing Fully regenerates all hit points. 0 2 Invoked - Seems fine.

16 Sign of Madness Adds +50 to AS and subtracts -50 from DS. 0 3 Dissipates 15 seconds - I'd stretch out the bonus and penalty phase and lower/eliminate the spirit cost. Add a cooldown timer with escalating costs.

17 Sign of Possession Mass calms the room with a hidden warding check. 0 4 Invoked Variable - Same as Hypnosis. Could either be combined and allow for open/focused cast, or remain room wide with same purpose.

18 Sign of Wracking Fully regenerates all mana. 0 5 Invoked - I'd up the cost to 6, but otherwise balancing this sign is tricky without significant revisions elsewhere. 6 points would mean investment in Aura enhancives in order to to use multiple times in a row, which is fine.

19 Sign of Darkness Teleports the user to a "safe point" or to the nearest Council chapter (whichever is closer). 0 6 Invoked - Lower cost and add the ability to use the sign when under duress in exchange for a -3 penalty to spirit recovery for a set amount of time.

20 Sign of Hopelessness Causes you to decay while dead. - I liked the ability to kill yourself on command. Not sure why they nerfed that.

General notes: I'd like to see base durations of CoL signs raised a bit, and a small reduction on the high end. 2 minutes off the top and added to the base would be a good start.

They could add a ton more signs, so it'd really depend on where they wanted to take the direction of the society to come up with ideas. I think messing with Spirit recovery for CoL signs as a cost is a good idea. This could be offset by doing upkeep tasks for the Council, or just paying an increasing bribe in order to bypass the busy work as a possible silver sink.

In general, I like the idea of being able to manipulate creatures to fight along side you, if briefly. It fits with the corrupting nature of the society. It'd be neat to see innate bonuses against certain creature types along with innate weaknesses. These modifiers could be modified both in the characters favor or to his detriment depending on how involved they are with the Council, providing a means of upkeep costs and potential RP hooks down the line.

@whirlin said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

Raw numbers are the most important to me... COL is the highest AS/DS benefits of any society. I'd drop billions on +1 AS, why wouldn't I do it with a society?

For RP reasons, or circumventing mechanical benefits, or consolidating clotting/staunching... Those are all good... but I can't recommend a complete overhaul and reanalysis of signs. If we're reviewing at a granular sign by sign level, I don't understand why overhauling COL would be more beneficial than just establishing a new society. Replacing can only add drama, problems with player bases when something is replaced that they want, etc.

There's also an assumption in here that all things need to be equally viable. Hello to you, Whip-Blades. Some things are simply better/worse than others for various reasons, AvDs versus DFs, etc. Not all societies need to have high RP value or a bounty board/etc.

Ideally, all things would be equally viable...or equally desirable. From a balance/design perspective, that is very very hard to do. But it is the holy grail...to have different people want different things for the RP/COOL factor and yet still have them be able to be powerful! (maybe in different circumstances, and in different ways....but no one should feel like they CANT choose to use a certain weapon base or be in a society because it will severely limit their ability to mechanically progress)

I'd argue that when it comes to a society, it needs to not just be mechanically viable (which CoL IS at present) but also Mechanically Attractive (which, it is the OP's contention, CoL is NOT at present)

It is a mechanics board, yes, but this is Gemstone. RP is and should be a factor in all discussions...right now my biggest problem with CoL is that from an RP perspective it is the most Interesting Potentially, but there is absolutely 0 use of its potential. This fault both lies with the players AND Simutronics.

So. In my mind, two things should be done. 1. Revamp and reignite the RP of CoL amongst the playerbase with storylines and other methods. Give players more tools to conduct interesting storylines themselves.

1. Go through each sign that is never/almost never used and fix it so people will at least sometimes use them. Give us Meaningful Choice.

That is what we want: Meaningful Choice INTERNALLY. Within the society.

Yes, but increasing meaningful choice while keeping the high value objects the same doesn't really reconcile either, it'd end up being a pure buff. Honestly, I don't care about the other signs sucking because the good ones are so good. But if we're talking about an RP change, that's fine.

@whirlin said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

es, but increasing meaningful choice while keeping the high value objects the same doesn’t really reconcile either, it’d end up being a pure buff. Honestly,

Oh certainly, there'd have to be a balance. Some take with the give. But, personally, its a sacrifice Im willing to make?

Not me... I really need every point of AS/DS I can muster running as a warmage. Wracking was a paramount choice on being a halfling with high spirit recovery. I'm not quite sure where they can take from that wouldn't materially substantially weaken the society! So, if we were looking at an RP change, rather than a mechanical change, I would be more for that. But then again, you're rewriting a lot of characters' stuff and telling them how their society choices NOW impact their character.

@Evarin good feedback! It shows some quick hit ideas for improvements.

Possession /Hypnoses / Madness - I think dependency on spirit is an issue overall if the drain is immediate or even delayed. It'll cripple melee so there has to be a real benefit to use those skills in day to day combat, and with the value of wracking won't be used by casters. I'm thinking remove, replace, or redesign for those.

One shot madness is old world, but perhaps a heightened attack for a reasonable duration, and then a cool down and spirit drain might be an example.

that proposal for hypnosis would essentially be spell 1120 (sympathy)

Perhaps more possession, but in either case for an entire society seems OP. I think those two signs need special consideration and/or replacement.

No. Leave the council alone. Gos is a pain in the ass and voln is great flavor but not for me. I love col as is.

COL is a society stuck in 90s mechanics.

The only reason I'm not surprised it wasn't revamped at GSIV introduction was the work effort needed to just bring GSIV into being. I suspect the COL revamp was relatively near term for game design changes, but then the exodus took place.

I would be thrilled if the gypsy fortuneteller would just be tossed out. If she whispers to me one more time, I think I may lose it. It's been ages, but wasn't her whole purpose tied to the Landing's CoL chapter? Does even have a purpose anymore?

You're thinking of the curious mystic. The fortuneteller can get messages (and yes, that's still a thing!).

@kragdruk said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

A lot of people find CoL pretty mechanically useful. If you do not, there are two other societies you can join. Seems much easier than advocating for a society revamp that most of the rest of the playerbase is not interested in seeing.

I know your post was 14 days ago, but I think it deserves a direct response. Crime never said Col in it's entirety is not mechanically useful. He said "So many signs in COL are utterly useless, this society needs a revamp" and in the post immediately before yours he specifically mentioned 6 signs. That's 6 signs out of a total of 20. While I appreciate your sentiment toward the society, I think dismissing Crime's point of view and telling him if he doesn't like it to just go join another society is rude. You also misrepresented his views in your post. Feel what you want to feel about someone else's opinion, but I would suggest making sure you don't put words in to other people's mouths so to speak. Making the blanket inaccurate statements that he does not find COL mechanically useful and that "most of the rest of the playerbase is not intereted in seeing" such a revamp is making a lot of assumptions and does not lend itself to constructive conversations.

@viekn Estild said directly that we wouldn't like a revamp of CoL. Most people agree that he is talking about wracking. Many people seem to want it how it is. I don't think he was trying to be rude, but direct. Tone is hard to convey in text though.

And since GM Estlid's response seems to be received by the community as in direct relation to one sign, I feel the GM response needs a rethink. A society should not be based on on single attribute. Improving mechanics is what we need.

@crime Its not, its just arguably the most powerful sign.

The signs are cheap to cast and they last forever. That is another aspect that people know they would lose. I believe Estild said durations would take a hit.

That's again the point. Not addressing the major flaws because there is a modern day sympathy for present mechanics isn't the best perspective in my opinion.

And I completely disagree. It has its place. No need to fuck with it.

I encourage the history and lore of it to be fleshed out, but don't mess with the signs.

You offer nothing constructive.

@sabotage said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

@viekn Estild said directly that we wouldn't like a revamp of CoL. Most people agree that he is talking about wracking. Many people seem to want it how it is. I don't think he was trying to be rude, but direct. Tone is hard to convey in text though.

I didn't assume tone. I just think it's rude to convey a meaning or an idea from someone else's words when they didn't specifically state that. You could argue that Kragdruk got the "the rest of the playerbase is not interested in seeing" idea from Estild, but that's still an assumption on Krag's part and also on Estild's part which probably shouldn't have been a blanket statement on his part either. But also stating that Crime thought COL was not mechanically useful was an inaccurate representation based on what Crime had written. I believe doing that kind of thing is inherently rude, regardless of tone. I'll chime in regarding wracking in next post.

I never said it wasn't mechanically useful. That's very inaccurate. I said some signs are not, and that's why a review / revamp is needed. Many are obsolete.

I'm glad you agree that the GM blanket statement wasn't encompassing of the greater good needed for overall game mechanics.

My character is a level 41 wizard. The only signs I ever use are: striking, smiting, swords, warding, defending, shields, and wracking. There are other useful signs, but 99% of the time, that's it. Based on Estild's and your remarks, and for the sake of conversation, let's assume wracking is the hang up here.

Based off of what I know only (which isn't everything), there are two types of people who use wracking: CS pures for hunting, and anyone else who has enough mana and spell knowledge to self spell and uses wracking to help them spell themselves up. It's not useful in hunting for bolting pures because of the AS hit due to the spirit drain. For CS pures, a nerf to wracking would have an impact on their hunt. Let's assume there are two end goals to hunting: gaining exp till fried or generating treasure. From my own experience, I've never needed a completely new tank of mana in order to fry. Getting back like 25%-50% of my total mana pool would easily allow me to fry. And that's really just on the first hunt after my mind was completely clear before. If, like most people I assume, you are just waiting until muddled or just below to go back out, then my current mana pool is more than enough to fry. So even for a CS hunter, it really shouldn't be much of an issue if wracking were tweaked to not automatically regenerate your entire mana pool. Now for treasure, sure, you aren't going to be able to stay out as long and hunt if wracking were tweaked downward. But with treasure, you get to a point of diminishing returns because of the encumbrance any way. I would still think that even with a tweak to wracking, someone who previously used it to stay out for a long time and generate tons of treasure is still going to be fine. Addressing the issue of spelling yourself up, yes wracking does make it easier, but I certainly don't need the ability to regenerate 100% of my mana pool to get it done. Worst case is that it takes me a few minutes longer to get it done. The only true area that I think would be effected most notably is sorcerers who treasure hunt and grind Duskruin. In that circumstance, because of sorcs ability to reduce their encumbrance, they'd have to head back in sooner than before. And with Duskruin and specifically the sorc spells that are used for that, I would imagine it would definitely reduce their effectiveness as it currently stands. But I do not think any of those reasons are good enough not to look at updating COL. If improving the RP of COL and maybe introducing on going tasks or reasons to be more involved on a day to day basis with the society means the signs also have to be looked at, I think it should be done and given time to acclimate, I think people would get used to some of the changes that would be hard to swallow in the short term.

@crime said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

I never said it wasn't mechanically useful. That's very inaccurate.

Not sure if you were replying to my post, but right, that's what I was saying. The way Kragdruk summarized your previous post was completely inaccurate, which I took issue with.

People also like CoL because of the long sign durations near/at cap and the lack of a pain in the ass mastery process. Not everything in Gemstone needs to be a grind (Looking at you all guild skills, all artisan skills, instrument mastery, etc). Squares like it for for the big boost to AS/DS/TD as well without limitations to what you're hunting.

There is a lot to like about CoL beyond wracking, but yeah, the nerf to wracking would be the most mechanically aggravating.

Having learned about how Symbol of Mana works, though, I suppose I could just chuck silvers at the problem and not have to even worry about the spirit loss. I wouldn't call that balanced either.

@crime I've offered more suggestions in this thread than you.

CoL needs two changes.

1. Signs should wear off at the same time
2. Signs should be refreshable instead of having to wait until they wear off to use again.

DON'T YOU TAKE AWAY MY +35/+35 THAT COSTS SIX MANA EVERY 18 MINUTES, OH AND SIGN OF DISSIPATION IS SUPER IMPORTANT FOR SQUARES BUT YOU HAVE TO STAGGER IT SO YOU DON'T GO BELOW 8 SPIRIT KTHXBYE

@crime said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

I never said it wasn't mechanically useful. That's very inaccurate. I said some signs are not, and that's why a review / revamp is needed. Many are obsolete.

Each society has things that aren't being used: Voln has Symbol of thought, Symbol of Holiness, Symbol of Sight, Symbol of Need, Symbol of Renewal... GOS has Sigil of Contact, Sigil of Distraction and Sigil of Intimidation... COL has sign of Clotting, Sign of Thought, Sign of Hypnosis, and Sign of Possession, and debatibly sign of hopelessness (depending on whether you believe hopelessness to be advantageous compared to decaying).

Each society has some waste, and that's ok. If we're talking about consolidating like-benefits, I'd rather more attention be drawn to to the spell circles' redundancy, and new spells added (401/406/414... I'm looking at you) than worrying about one society having 10% of signs not being as useful as another society's

Eh, I use sign of thought. Why not have the thought net up 24/7?

Hypnosis/Possession I can't see being regularly used by anyone, though. Costs are just too high for the benefit.

Those very poor examples of useless Voln symbols!

Pitchfork!!

@whirlin said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

@crime said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

I never said it wasn't mechanically useful. That's very inaccurate. I said some signs are not, and that's why a review / revamp is needed. Many are obsolete.

Each society has things that aren't being used: Voln has Symbol of thought, Symbol of Holiness, Symbol of Sight, Symbol of Need, Symbol of Renewal... GOS has Sigil of Contact, Sigil of Distraction and Sigil of Intimidation... COL has sign of Clotting, Sign of Thought, Sign of Hypnosis, and Sign of Possession, and debatibly sign of hopelessness (depending on whether you believe hopelessness to be advantageous compared to decaying).

Each society has some waste, and that's ok. If we're talking about consolidating like-benefits, I'd rather more attention be drawn to to the spell circles' redundancy, and new spells added (401/406/414... I'm looking at you) than worrying about one society having 10% of signs not being as useful as another society's

Crime can speak for himself, but I don't think the intent of his suggestion of a COL review is sign waste or similar benefit consolidation. The issue seems to be more so that RP wise and in regards to daily interactions with the society, COL is more of a throwaway society. It's easy to master and after you've mastered, no one has anything to do with it afterwards other than using the signs. The call is for a review to either flesh it out or revamp it in order to give it a more RP centered focus and give players an avenue to do something more with it on a daily basis.

The issue of signs and the waste/redundancy only came up because others pointed to the potential changes to the signs as a reason for Simu not to review COL. Some of us then countered that changes to signs/powers alone wasn't a good enough reason for a review not to happen. And then some others disagreed. Signs/powers has never been the gripe, at least not in this case.

Personally I think the main issue with CoL not having flavor is that it's been mechanically discouraged since it's inception. Fiddle around with the RP of it, maybe give it some mechanical flavor through tweaking the stepping process or signs a little if necessary, but dear lord, give people some way to talk about it without getting instagibbed by an assassin, and it will grow its flavor.

Currently the only way to advance CoL RP and flavor is to get members to show up to an event for it. Somehow. Through LNet probably, which is already a bad start, and as anyone who's thrown an event knows, it's like herding cats.

CoL has some of the most potentially cool RP around it, but it's super stifled and always has been by the fact that you can't talk about it in public.

I think if there were some way to make CoL more "socially acceptable" to talk about, it would allow the RP to grow around it like has been done for Sunfist and Voln. I get it - it's a secret society, but some suspension of disbelief is gonna be required.

Gee, if only they gave some way of communicating that ONLY other CoL members could use...

@ordim said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

Gee, if only they gave some way of communicating that ONLY other CoL members could use...

Are you saying that in 2017 you believe you can -get- those members to use it? Because I seem to remember you tried. Recently. How'd that go for ya? Might as well be asking people to sell on the Amunet. Should it be? Yes. Will it be? No. Probably not ever again. And the game is poorer for it, but it's the reality of the situation.

There was a handful of people that showed up earlier in the year. And I use signal fairly often to send messages and say things when needed. The fact that RP is dying out to mechanical options is above and beyond the scope of this conversation.

additionally: it only was paused for my own commitments in other areas. As I said in another thread, be on the look out for the continuation of what I started to pick up soon, in a slightly different format that I think will fit much better moving forward. And if it doesn't, then maybe I'm just not good at stuff like that and I'll live with that as well.

@flimbo said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

@ordim said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

Gee, if only they gave some way of communicating that ONLY other CoL members could use...

Are you saying that in 2017 you believe you can -get- those members to use it? Because I seem to remember you tried. Recently. How'd that go for ya? Might as well be asking people to sell on the Amunet. Should it be? Yes. Will it be? No. Probably not ever again. And the game is poorer for it, but it's the reality of the situation.

I think he means the SIGNAL command, which basically acts as a CoL only in-room chat.

I mean to be more active with CoL when I return, and i'd definitely welcome more GM lead RP or general guidance on that front. That being said, how active is the Sunfist and Voln RP? I suppose people meet up to burn down camps, but I wouldn't call that the height of RP either.

@evarin said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

I think he means the SIGNAL command, which basically acts as a CoL only in-room chat.

I mean to be more active with CoL when I return, and i'd definitely welcome more GM lead RP or general guidance on that front. That being said, how active is the Sunfist and Voln RP? I suppose people meet up to burn down camps, but I wouldn't call that the height of RP either.

Yeah, I know what he meant. I can't speak to Sunfist RP, but Voln I've always felt was more on a character to character bases, being integrated into that character's RP rather than being a big group RP type of thing. For example, Flimbo will often go on tangents about punching ghosts to release their flavor. I've included things like that in events I've held as well as everyday conversations. That's directly Voln related, even if it doesn't drive Voln's storyline in any way shape or form. I'm sure you could integrate talking about the Grimswarm into the RP of your Sunfist character in a similar way. With CoL, you just can't do that. No opportunity unless you wanna get ganked by an assassin. That's the part I hate about it. It's very difficult to have it add anything to your character flavor-wise.

@viekn Don't misquote me. I said "a society revamp that most of the rest of the playerbase is not interested in seeing". Most of the the player base. A majority. If you are paying attention, the reaction at Simucon and in this thread seems to back that up.

Not really sure how you can argue that switching a character to another society is less work than advocating for a significant amount of GM work. GM time is by far the most limited resource we have. CoL is very viable as-is for many people, so I would much rather see the GM effort put into a new society instead of revamping an existing one that works well for many people. I would have no problem with them working on the RP aspects of CoL, but Crime specifically mentioned the mechanical aspects ie signs.

@viekn said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

Crime can speak for himself, but I don't think the intent of his suggestion of a COL review is sign waste or similar benefit consolidation. The issue seems to be more so that RP wise and in regards to daily interactions with the society, COL is more of a throwaway society. It's easy to master and after you've mastered, no one has anything to do with it afterwards other than using the signs. The call is for a review to either flesh it out or revamp it in order to give it a more RP centered focus and give players an avenue to do something more with it on a daily basis.

You really should let him speak for himself because you are misrepresenting his position. He has repeatedly mentioned the overlap between clotting and staunching as well as the uselessness of madness and hypnosis. These are all 100% mechanical aspects.

It's great that you would like to see the RP aspects of CoL improved. I would have no problem with this personally. I just don't think that a mechanical revamp is something that most of the player base desires and there is no reason that RP changes would require them to make mechanical changes.

Mechanics should always be reviewed.

What I am saying is the GM response that it won't be reviewed because people will be unhappy is a bad response.

I'm also saying this this society needs a review / revamp to fit a gaming system that has evolved.

Their reply should raise concern that the perspective is to nurf and not revamp. This is a reason I didn't like the response.

They could both revamp and make people happy. It is possible.

As to a majority of people not wanting this, this majority is highly skewed to processions that wrack (i.e. The group who wants CoL as is today), this should be a major flag for game designers, that their system has become idiosyncratic.

That's a good point, Crime. Remember the response to the Voln revamp? Voln Fu going away was like the world ending. Then it turned out okay, because UAC is awesome. New Voln is awesome. New Voln lost zero flavor compared to old Voln, and the symbols work in a very similar, but decidedly more modern way mechanically.

The problem with CoL from an RP perspective isn't because it can't be talked about openly (that's incredibly easy to work around), but the fact that it's based entirely in a backstory that was removed from the lore - unlife. It was suggested by a few people, just simply adjusting the backstory to be a shadow Illuminati style group that will use any power necessary to gain control would go a long way.

@whirlin said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

Each society has things that aren't being used: Voln has Symbol of thought, Symbol of Holiness, Symbol of Sight, Symbol of Need, Symbol of Renewal... Each society has some waste, and that's ok. If we're talking about consolidating like-benefits, I'd rather more attention be drawn to to the spell circles' redundancy, and new spells added (401/406/414... I'm looking at you) than worrying about one society having 10% of signs not being as useful as another society's

Okay, I'm upvoting you because I agree with your principles, especially about spell circles, but I can't let those Voln examples stand. Symbol of Holiness yes, but Symbol of Thought sees lots of use (at least in the Landing, not sure about anywhere else) and Need and Sight are good when rescuing people who don't use Lich, especially since they let buried people be found.

And Renewal is niche for sure, but is used by AS-based Rift hunters when they first enter. It can also be used by clerics when using 318 or 340 in the field or by anyone who gets a field raise.

The primary thing that would be reduced for COL is the duration of signs. No other society has their buffing mechanics last as long as COL. Wracking has been pointed out to be weaker than Symbol of Mana up to a certain point, and requires AUR enhancives or a race that regens spirit at higher rates to be particularly useful by comparison.

10 seconds per level. Think about that. At level 100, that's 1000 seconds or more than 16 minutes. Voln symbols last for more like 10 seconds per rank, which is only 260 seconds as a master or just over 4 minutes. So, a capped player has 4x the duration with COL signs vs a capped player with Voln symbols.

Then you have GOS, which is subjectively worse. Their primary sigils last slightly longer than Voln, but their major sigils are only 90 seconds with hefty mana/stamina up-keep.

So, if you want to know what Simu is going to nerf with a COL re-vamp, it's going to be duration and cost. Instead of spending 1 spirit for Swords and 1 spirit for Shields every 16 minutes, you'll spend them every 4-5 minutes. For anyone not a halfling or whatever - that means you'll have a hard time keeping up with the spirit drain during a hunt.

Wracking probably wouldn't change much at all. They need to move some of the signs away from spirit because spirit is too precious to expend for a mass calm or hypnosis. Spirit doesn't just impact your AS, but also substantially reduces your DS.

@kragdruk said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

@viekn Don't misquote me. I said "a society revamp that most of the rest of the playerbase is not interested in seeing". Most of the the player base. A majority. If you are paying attention, the reaction at Simucon and in this thread seems to back that up.

Not really sure how you can argue that switching a character to another society is less work than advocating for a significant amount of GM work. GM time is by far the most limited resource we have. CoL is very viable as-is for many people, so I would much rather see the GM effort put into a new society instead of revamping an existing one that works well for many people. I would have no problem with them working on the RP aspects of CoL, but Crime specifically mentioned the mechanical aspects ie signs.

You're right, when I quoted you, I left off the "most of", which does qualify your statement a bit. I went back and edited my quote to more accurately reflect yours. That was unintentional and thank you for pointing it out. I still don't think its accurate or useful to assume it's most of the player base's reaction though. You used this forum and Simcon as evidcence, but how many people went to simucon and out of the 262 users on this forum, it seems like only 50 or so are the most active posters, and far less than that have chimed in against a COL review.

I'm not arguing that switching a character to another society is less work than advocating for significant GM work on COL. But is that not the definition of taking the easy way out?

I think the issue is this: Out of the 3 societies that exist, which is the most outdated, whose RP purpose and origins have no real connection to the GSIV game world of today? For those reasons alone, and for all the other areas of the game Simu is working to improve, why wouldn't that qualify for a review as well?

I disagree, Ashraam. Yes, they'd probably do something different with durations in a revamp (Voln symbols are stackable by the way, so I love them), but I 100% do not agree that they would basically limit the society to one or two races being viable. Currently that's how a few of the signs function currently - Wracking specifically. In a lot of cases with wracking you destroy your own ability to continue the hunt if you use it. Anyone who uses AS to hunt, or needs DS to survive takes a significant hit from using it, and only a few races can quickly close the gap and make that hit less lasting. I'd much prefer to have wracking useful for everyone that can use mana in much the way symbol of mana is if it meant it opened it to a wider array of characters to use.

In this hypothetical revamp, I would think if anything, maybe they'd take spirit out of the equation altogether, or alter how it functions on a base level, just as a thought. I mean, really, what does Spirit even do these days? To my knowledge, it's for A) CoL, and B) Clerics raising. Does it affect anything else in the game? It feels like an outdated, or at least wildly underutilized mechanic. Would anything suffer from detaching CoL from spirit and just maybe retiring it eventually?

@whirlin said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

Yes, but increasing meaningful choice while keeping the high value objects the same doesn't really reconcile either, it'd end up being a pure buff. Honestly, I don't care about the other signs sucking because the good ones are so good. But if we're talking about an RP change, that's fine.

I think the issue with that is the assumption based off of Estild's Simucon response is that "Hey, you don't want us taking a look at COL for any reasons, RP or otherwise, because it'd likely result in a nerf of signs". Those are MY words only, and my interpretation of what was conveyed by others. Just fyi.

We keep saying duration and they keep saying wracking. Weird communication gap.

@flimbo said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

I mean, really, what does Spirit even do these days? To my knowledge, it's for A) CoL, and B) Clerics raising. Does it affect anything else in the game? It feels like an outdated, or at least wildly underutilized mechanic. Would anything suffer from detaching CoL from spirit and just maybe retiring it eventually?

It's also used for 340 and 1640, is a minor penalty when entering the Rift or Confluence, and some undead can have a chance to drain 1 spirit if they hit you with a physical attack first. It's definitely underutilized, I agree, but I wouldn't retire it myself.

Ideally I'd love to see spirit have at least one good use for empaths, sorcerers, monks, and paladins (since they're all spiritual professions) and 3-4 good uses for clerics... which is why I recently made two suggestions on the officials for new cleric spells that could use spirit to cast or charge an offensive spell.

Sorcerers use spirit for sacrifice, though they can eventually train away the penalty.

@crime said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

Mechanics should always be reviewed.

What I am saying is the GM response that it won't be reviewed because people will be unhappy is a bad response.

I'm also saying this this society needs a review / revamp to fit a gaming system that has evolved.

Their reply should raise concern that the perspective is to nurf and not revamp. This is a reason I didn't like the response.

They could both revamp and make people happy. It is possible.

As to a majority of people not wanting this, this majority is highly skewed to processions that wrack (i.e. The group who wants CoL as is today), this should be a major flag for game designers, that their system has become idiosyncratic.

Mechanically, COL is fine, and in line with other societies based on used abilities versus total. All societies have a little bit of waste. It's unrealistic, and against current design to expect all abilities to be used all the time. COL's draw has always been for slightly more AS/DS than Voln/COL for some loss of some of the utility of the societies.

Per RP redesigns, I think most everyone agrees it's a good idea.

As far as wracking/mana/power... that's very subjective based on class/race. As a halfling, I'll take wracking any day. If I were an empath, I'd take power forever. If I was a Dark Elf Sorcerer, I'd probably take power. They are different enough so they each have their uses. No one is the absolute strongest for all situations (source: my math)

@whirlin said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

@crime said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

Mechanics should always be reviewed.

What I am saying is the GM response that it won't be reviewed because people will be unhappy is a bad response.

I'm also saying this this society needs a review / revamp to fit a gaming system that has evolved.

Their reply should raise concern that the perspective is to nurf and not revamp. This is a reason I didn't like the response.

They could both revamp and make people happy. It is possible.

As to a majority of people not wanting this, this majority is highly skewed to processions that wrack (i.e. The group who wants CoL as is today), this should be a major flag for game designers, that their system has become idiosyncratic.

Mechanically, COL is fine, and in line with other societies based on used abilities versus total. All societies have a little bit of waste. It's unrealistic, and against current design to expect all abilities to be used all the time. COL's draw has always been for slightly more AS/DS than Voln/COL for some loss of some of the utility of the societies.

Per RP redesigns, I think most everyone agrees it's a good idea.

As far as wracking/mana/power... that's very subjective based on class/race. As a halfling, I'll take wracking any day. If I were an empath, I'd take power forever. If I was a Dark Elf Sorcerer, I'd probably take power. They are different enough so they each have their uses. No one is the absolute strongest for all situations (source: my math)

As a DE sorcerer with 300+ mana and 11 spirit, I use wracking. I can do a lot more with wracking than I can with Power or Mana from other societies. I also have two +spirit regen items I can hold for on-node regeneration.

However, it takes a lot of resources to make it powerful. I could accomplish the same thing with Symbol of Power and lots of deeds. Or, I could get max stamina and stamina regeneration enhancives to better use Power... but still that one doesn't really compete.

Wracking isn't likely the main reason that COL has any power edge. The sign up-keep is 3-4x more effective than any other society. Losing spirit at a rate of 2-3 every 4-5 minutes vs 2-3 every 16 minutes is a much bigger deal.

@flimbo said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

I disagree, Ashraam. Yes, they’d probably do something different with durations in a revamp (Voln symbols are stackable by the way, so I love them), but I 100% do not agree that they would basically limit the society to one or two races being viable.

Just remember - there are three signs that many capped players using COL would like to keep active - Sign of Swords, Sign of Shields and Sign of Dissipation. That's +15 to AS/DS/TD. This costs you 3 spirit every 16 minutes currently. If that was comparable duration to Voln or GOS, it would cost you 3 spirit every 4-5 minutes. That's a lot of spirit loss and very little time to regenerate. Most races will only be able to regen 1-2 of that spirit loss before the next time those signs wear off, assuming you refresh them immediately. Your hunt is going to be significantly shortened.

There is a lot more power tied to the duration of the signs than people realize.

I wait 2-3 mintues after using Swords and Shields to use Dissipation. That way I never go below 8/10 spirit.

@mogonis said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

I wait 2-3 mintues after using Swords and Shields to use Dissipation. That way I never go below 8/10 spirit.

Of course, it's a valid strategy to be sure - but consider what happens if those current durations are messed with.

Lets say they decided that the duration for COL is too powerful. They tinker and make it 15 seconds to RANK. That means you get 5 minutes.

Lets say you're a Giantman (because it's middle of the road spirit regen)

You start up Sign of Swords / Shields at the start of your hunt, and then 2 minutes into the hunt you start Sign of Dissipation. At 5 minutes, Swords/Shields fall taking you from 10 spirit to 8 spirit.

Off-Node a Giant regenerates 1 spirit every 3 minutes. In 2 minutes, your sign of Dissipation now falls off, and you're stuck at 7 spirit for the next 60 seconds. Ok, 60 seconds go by, back up to 8 spirit. Great! Full AS/DS.

Oh wait, you have 3 minutes left on your refreshed Sign of Swords/Shields. Ok, 3 minutes pass, and you're back up to 9 spirit but Swords/Shields fall off -- down to 7 spirit. 2 minutes later Dissipation falls off - back down to 6 spirit now... Ugh.

You see how this treadmill never gets better? Those durations are crucial to COL, and that's where the major power differential is between COL and the other two societies. People underestimate the power of having 16 minute duration on Signs at cap.

You look at Elves and DE, and they're in a world of pain without significant investment into enhancives to mitigate the spirit drain if those durations were ever changed.

@leafiara said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

@flimbo said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

I mean, really, what does Spirit even do these days? To my knowledge, it's for A) CoL, and B) Clerics raising. Does it affect anything else in the game? It feels like an outdated, or at least wildly underutilized mechanic. Would anything suffer from detaching CoL from spirit and just maybe retiring it eventually?

It's also used for 340 and 1640, is a minor penalty when entering the Rift or Confluence, and some undead can have a chance to drain 1 spirit if they hit you with a physical attack first. It's definitely underutilized, I agree, but I wouldn't retire it myself.

Ideally I'd love to see spirit have at least one good use for empaths, sorcerers, monks, and paladins (since they're all spiritual professions) and 3-4 good uses for clerics... which is why I recently made two suggestions on the officials for new cleric spells that could use spirit to cast or charge an offensive spell.

Hmmmmmmm...what I'm hearing is that we should rename spirit to "midichlorians" and make it Monk only and also Monks get a bonus for having a lot of it because I have 12 and it just sits there taunting me. Unless I can find a low level cleric to try to murder by raising me it's useless. USELESS.

You proposed a good idea, Leafiara! Spirit should be changed to Monk force powers! This is a Monk thread now! To the Monk folder with it!

It only goes to prove that all things, when you wish hard enough, are about Monks.

(TL;DR - Ah yeah. Knew it had to have at least a couple other uses. Thankya. A spirit rework might be worthwhile in addition to a CoL rework)

Cool.

First off, i pointed out a need for review / revamp, a need to fix obaolete signs, but really also called for GM creativity to be breathed into COL.

I think I'd dislike a player group consensus, and would certainly like to see a Simutronics rethink on everything COL. If they want to maintain continuity or break from it, leave it up to the game designers since many signs need to be replaced.

@crime said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

At Simucon I questioned whether COL would be reviewed for update.

The response was fairly clear they felt it was not balanced today, and was told we wouldn't want to see a review. Meaning they'd nurf it.

What I've specifically gathered from this through speaking with players is that wracking is OP and would be nurfed and players would be very unhappy.

As a gamer I'm more interested in game balance, and so for the record, I am calling for a COL review.

Breath some life into it rather than nurf it. If there is a mechanic that is so unbalancing they don't want to move forward then there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

So many signs in COL are utterly useless, this society needs a revamp.

So you're calling for a nerf of COL? Sounds like a real dick move if you ask me.

You keep saying you want a review, but you haven't yet specified what it is you want.

@crime Maybe you should have an outline for what you would like to see other than "get rid of duplicate signs". What are you looking to change, specifically? What are you willing to give up for a review? What new signs are you looking for?

I think you all just completely ignored that fact.that I don't want a player based consortium for this change, and don't care to offer one other than pointing out the obvious flaws we all see. Usually these player based interactions are very self motivated collectives and don't keep the greater good of game mechanics in mind.

I had an issue with game design change in the 90s only because they didn't allow us to change our character templates, not because of the changes themselves. That's fixed. I applaud game designers, but not to a fault, so let them come up with ideas and then let them QC them. That's their job. All I care about is good game design.

Go scream all you want, but you're shouting into the wind if you are against evolution. CoL needs a rethink by the designers.

And everyone seems to disagree with you.

Why not just ask for a new society and you can have all your nifty bells and whistles.

COL is fine.

An armored Hendoran knight thrusts with a deep blue vultite lance at an animated patchwork flesh monstrosity! AS: +9492 vs DS: +388 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +25 = +9161 ... and hits for 3196 points of damage! Hard blow breaks the femur! A patchwork flesh monstrosity looks slightly different. Stitches pop horrendously all over the surface of a patchwork flesh monstrosity's body as it collapses to the floor, vitrified organs leaking free with its surrender to death. A patchwork flesh monstrosity becomes solid again. A patchwork flesh monstrosity's movements no longer appear to be influenced by a divine power as the spiritual force fades from around its arms. The warm glow fades from around a patchwork flesh monstrosity. A patchwork flesh monstrosity seems hesitant. A patchwork flesh monstrosity seems slightly different.

That knight is definitely a member of COL.

@whirlin @Crime Agree with this wholeheartedly. CoL is very powerful and the GMs basically said there would be a nerf if they reviewed it. I believe the exact phrasing was , "You REALLY DON'T want us to review this."

Crime, I think if I had to rank the mechanical benefits of each society it would go something like #1 CoL #2 GoSF #3 Voln. CoL has some classic GS3 elements that were 'grandfathered' in to GS4 that makes it very OP. GoSF has 'ease of use' and straight up mechanical benefits that adds on top of everything else your character has. Voln is more a social & RP club and if you're not hunting mostly undead this society is completely useless.

Everyone does not disagree, and saying they do is ignoring those that also chimed in on this thread. Such is the way of the trolls.

So to this I'll say, this thread has reached as far as needed, the GM community has heard from both the constructive and the derailing entities.

I hope a COL rethink is inbound!

Lol derailing = disagreeing

@crime said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

Everyone does not disagree, and saying they do is ignoring those that also chimed in on this thread. Such is the way of the trolls.

So to this I'll say, this thread has reached as far as needed, the GM community has heard from both the constructive and the derailing entities.

I hope a COL rethink is inbound!

I'd rather they dedicate more time to properly nerf rogues.

@whirlin Is this statement in jest? If not, why do you think rogues need a nerf?

@crime said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

Let us not compare societies at this point. Rather let's focus on COL :)

Isn't that the point though? If we're discussing making COL more balanced with the other societies, we need to actually compare COL with the other societies.

@god I hunt in OTF with almost zero undead and I am in Voln. It's far from useless, you can save up enough favor to last a lifetime.

@sabotage Same, hunted OTF for many years and at one point survived on night time Qyn'ari liches. Reim has made using Voln anywhere rather easy.

Aurach

Bring back the scoreboard for landings!

@crime said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

I think you all just completely ignored that fact.that I don't want a player based consortium for this change, and don't care to offer one other than pointing out the obvious flaws we all see. Usually these player based interactions are very self motivated collectives and don't keep the greater good of game mechanics in mind.

I had an issue with game design change in the 90s only because they didn't allow us to change our character templates, not because of the changes themselves. That's fixed. I applaud game designers, but not to a fault, so let them come up with ideas and then let them QC them. That's their job. All I care about is good game design.

Go scream all you want, but you're shouting into the wind if you are against evolution. CoL needs a rethink by the designers.

When GMs say, "You REALLY wouldn't like a CoL review" I tend to listen.

Same thing they say about Bards.

GM's make statements for their own reasons...

We make requests for ours...

Fix the obsolete signs!

To the demonic with the nay sayers!

Hey, what it comes down to is this - CoL is stale. It's been stale for years, maybe even decades. Nobody can deny that. There's no reason to not say "Hey, it'd be nice if we could make it fresh". I think some people just live to crap on ideas.

Wehnimer's Landing is Stale. It's been stale for years. Maybe even decades. Nobody can deny that. There's no reason to say "Hey, it'd be nice is we BURNED IT TO THE GROUND FOREVER".

@whirlin said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

Wehnimer's Landing is Stale. It's been stale for years. Maybe even decades. Nobody can deny that. There's no reason to say "Hey, it'd be nice is we BURNED IT TO THE GROUND FOREVER".

COME ON, POOKIE! LET'S BURN THIS MOTHER DOWN!

@flimbo said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

@whirlin said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

Wehnimer's Landing is Stale. It's been stale for years. Maybe even decades. Nobody can deny that. There's no reason to say "Hey, it'd be nice is we BURNED IT TO THE GROUND FOREVER".

COME ON, POOKIE! LET'S BURN THIS MOTHER DOWN!

YES!

@flimbo said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

Hey, what it comes down to is this - CoL is stale. It's been stale for years, maybe even decades. Nobody can deny that. There's no reason to not say "Hey, it'd be nice if we could make it fresh". I think some people just live to crap on ideas.

Thank you. Clearly a voice of reason.

A GM saying we'd not like a review simply puts the fear of change in people, but yes we really do want a COL revamp!

Burn down the Landing if that's what it takes!

The last time CoL got attention they burned down the Landing chapter. Maybe next they'll relocate the only entrance to Teras.

@taernath I think the scatter seems like an apt place for it.

@Sabotage well glad it's clear you could care less about CoL. You're a nice troll though :) perhaps you'd like a bow tie and top hat!

Perhaps they've already discussed a revamp at length and can't come up with anything good. They do not share as often as we'd like.

Whatever the case it's too bad these player forums, or the officials, only receive official replies if they feel like offering it. I don't like using the forums for that reason, and it turns into player vs player which generally feels like a waste of time.

Still, shouting into the wind, one's voice might still be heard. One never knows.

@crime Gotcha, disagreeing with you is trolling you.

You've had like 1 person agree with you and like 10 people disagree not to mention your post on the officials where even more people didn't want the change either.

Somehow you here that and are like "see people do want CoL changed". Its like you have a mental block on people that disagree with you.

Never go full retard.

@Sabotage learn to read.

I think you'll find quite a few people with interest in a CoL revamp on this thread.

They just don't care to involve themselves with people who think disagreeing is a constructive exchange.

This thread isn't a debate, it is a call for improvement.

Blind ignorance from the likes of you is why people give up.

Everyone who's disagreed with you has been constructive. If you wanted to create a topic where only people who agree with you are allowed to post you should have led with that, but I have a feeling it would be a very lonely thread.

@crime Perhaps you should l2read. I just reread this entire thread and one person has agreed with you on a mechanical revamp. Everyone else disagrees. Most everyone, myself included, agrees that an RP change would be welcomed to CoL.

Disagreeing is exactly what a constructive exchange is.... provided there are reasons explained, which I have done. You just don't like my opinion so you consider it invalid. This isn't an echo chamber for you, sorry.

@hjfudge said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

I feel the 'constant management' of societal sigils/signs/symbols is a mistaken direction.

Id much rather have it where having the sigil or sign up RESERVES a portion of your mana/stamina, meaning it lowers its max, and you dont have to keep updating it. Cause theres no reason for that shit. It doesnt add to 'fun' or 'strategy' for your basic sigils/symbols to constantly be needing to be reapplied. It just makes things tedious.

I always liked the idea of this when I've seen it implemented in other games.

@whirlin said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

Wehnimer's Landing is Stale. It's been stale for years. Maybe even decades. Nobody can deny that. There's no reason to say "Hey, it'd be nice is we BURNED IT TO THE GROUND FOREVER".

You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

@riend said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

@whirlin said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

Wehnimer's Landing is Stale. It's been stale for years. Maybe even decades. Nobody can deny that. There's no reason to say "Hey, it'd be nice is we BURNED IT TO THE GROUND FOREVER".

You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

That was true 10+ years ago, which made it the best town in the game! The population decline has made it pretty tame. It's still the best though.

@mogonis said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

@riend said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

@whirlin said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

Wehnimer's Landing is Stale. It's been stale for years. Maybe even decades. Nobody can deny that. There's no reason to say "Hey, it'd be nice is we BURNED IT TO THE GROUND FOREVER".

You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

That was true 10+ years ago, which made it the best town in the game! The population decline has made it pretty tame. It's still the best though.

I don't know about that. The Rooks still mucking about, supported by portions of the population. Kestrals murdifying people, dead dudes being brought back to life in the bodies of other dead dudes. A Crossinite, Barnom Slim lichborne Mayor who tells bedtime nightmares to blood trees...

...sounds preeeeeeeeetty sketchy to me. =p

Oh, you mean storylines. I meant players, heh.

@mogonis said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

Oh, you mean storylines. I meant players, heh.

The people drive the storylines. Kenstrom has said many times that he writes the basic concept but it's the player's actions and involvement the mold it. =)

The Landing has seen a decisive shift from black/white to grey over the past 5ish years, with a definite skewing towards the darker greys. And this is from a player standpoint. It has definitely led to some interesting developments and RP, and has been totally interesting to watch from the outside.

I had hoped that when Grishom Stone rebuilt the Landing COL that we'd see some kind of refresh of the RP for the society, but we did not. CoL has always been OP, and even after the Voln review and updates I think that still holds true. Sometimes, when we ask for change, we don't get what we want. I'd rather see the GMs continue to develop new things and revise those that are in larger need of change then to take the chance on seeing a full-on mechanical CoL review that could very well turn into Wizardggedon 2.0.

@Sabotage the evidence of your ignorance is your unwillingness to acknowledge the community.

While I understand there's many who want things just the way they are, there is no denying the obsolete mechanics in COL. Possession, hypnosis, lesser clotting, hopelessness, perhaps madness has value but a one shot sign is basically useless.

So you disagreeing with this is laughable. You have no leg to stand on. You are the utter full retard LMAO.

Calling for a rethink could and would only add to the game.

Calling for a rethink could and would only add to the game.

Unless they nerf it to a state which will be a loss of utility to players, which GMs by and large have suggested they would do.

We're going to go back and forth on this, so i'ma set this thread to ignore at this point. Good luck, everyone.

That's 4 signs of 20. And there's an assumption about there in Hopelessness that has not been tested nor any GM provided insight for post-death changes... Every society has up to 20% waste to some professions in its abilities. It's not an outlier that needs to be hammered into line.

@whirlin said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

That's 4 signs of 20. And there's an assumption about there in Hopelessness that has not been tested nor any GM provided insight for post-death changes... Every society has up to 20% waste to some professions in its abilities. It's not an outlier that needs to be hammered into line.

This. Times infinity. None of the societies are 100% perfect fits for all professions, but each one has utilities that make hunting easier. If you're looking to balance all societies with all professions you're going to end up with WoW-level class nerfs, and they've been trying to balance them for over 10 years now.

@Whirlin It is more like 30% blatantly useless, nothing to do with what profession you are, and then there are borderline useless.

@crime said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

While I understand there's many who want things just the way they are, there is no denying the obsolete mechanics in COL. Possession (1), hypnosis (2), lesser clotting (3), hopelessness (4), perhaps madness has value but a one shot sign is basically useless.

@crime said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

@Whirlin It is more like 30% blatantly useless, nothing to do with what profession you are, and then there are borderline useless.

1, 2, 3, 4... I added numbers, I disagree with madness being worthless. There are 20 signs in COL. That's 4/20. That is 20%. Where does the 30% come into play? What have changed in the last 2 hours when you referenced worthless signs? 16 days ago, you also referenced sign of thought, which each society has, so that's at an additional worthless ability across the board, plus, it's not important enough for you to note here, and there have been people that say it's incredibly useful and that it's not worthless.

Per my previous post, there are also 3 sigils (15%), and 5 Symbols (19.23%) that are also worthless. So, your argument is that 20% is untolerable, but 19.23% is tolerable?

CoL could use RP integration, but it's a secret society, so it has to be done carefully. A mechanic review, if ever deemed necessary, should be very low on the priority list. Like lower than new guilds, which Estild said is basically the bottom of the list already.

@Whirlin you said other societies have worthless abilities to certain professions, but CoL has worthless across the board. I come up with 30% easily and held back on borderline skills.

Also, I agree with you, let's turn this into a society review and handle all the obsolete skills if any.

@Mogonis trying to lump this active mechanic below the dreams of other guilds is a blow off for fixing the live system.

I'm glad we all agree each society has things to be fixed! Let's start with thr one that hasn't been updated in decades, COL. Maybe while they're doing it they can add some tweaks to the others.

@crime said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

@Sabotage the evidence of your ignorance is your unwillingness to acknowledge the community.

Yes, I'm the one not listening to the community....

@Sabotage You and the others who are against a review offer nothing constructive. That's the bottom line.

Everyone else who has participated recognizes the truth and sees merit in game design review. That's the truth.

I chose a review for the good of the game.

@crime Its like you don't know what the words you're using mean.

No @Crime... You don't for the good of the game... You still lack any cohesive argument over why it should be done. Facts have been pointed your way multiple times of how it is not outside the norm of the overall usefulness compared to other alternatives readily available. To which you have been dismissive under the argument that it has not been touched in a while.

"It has not been touched" is not an argument, it's an assertion which ignores the myriad of other mechanics and established systems that have not been sufficiently reviewed since inception. 80% effectiveness of a mechanic? Should we take a look at the various forms of weapon types? Why are you not calling for a review of whip blades to make them effective versus a handaxe? Why are you not calling for halberds to be buffed because they're basically nagintas with 20 less AvD? Many facets of Gemstone since the inception have shortcomings that fit into the game's design to establish some objects/items that are inherently superior to others. You've ignored this facet.

Your ready dismissal of any valid argument against your point and your proceeding onto your point, ignoring, and disengaging from any meaningful conversation on a message board make Krakii ideas more open to interpretation and more readily available for review. You are functioning little more than a troll with your thick pigheadedness.

I would sooner see Savants, Empaths revamped to utilize Minor Mental, making throwing more readily accessible, endgame content, more endgame dungeons, tanking mechanics, completing all spell circles, making all of the CMANs a bit more normalized and more attractive, revamping GOS to reduce maximum as martial stances rather than such a short duration, increasing the spins on the Voln orb, integration of more lich functions into the front end, making the initial end user experience better in the web front end, interconnecting with facebook for new players, integrating elanthia forums to replace their official forums, making a permanent structure for the Hand of the Arkati, and Stillfront hiring me at a 200% raise, before I'd see them do a mechanics review on COL.

@Whirlin good thing you don't work for simutronics. That rant is the way of thr dodo bird, and frankly belittles your otherwise very knowledgeable background in Gemstone mechanics.

They have a lot of work to do, it is true. I'm thankful for seeing progress in general.

None the less, I call for a review of CoL, and any broken mechanic. I'd be happy if they simply replaced the utterly useless signs, but regretfully to touch those they apparently insist on a total review. So be it.

I would be pretty stoked to see the storyline and RP of CoL updated.

That being said, I would be quite pissed off if wracking was changed, given that I rolled my sorceress as a halfling expressly for the spirit regen to complement wracking.

I think most people are just upset at the idea of losing/nerfing signs and duration they find incredibly useful, @Crime . It's not that a review wouldn't be cool, it just seems like it would distress a lot of older players (which is all of us now?? Are we all at least 30 by this point?). Also, I rather agree with @Whirlin in stating that there is a solid list of other things that should take precedence.

Lastly, down with the Landing! Burn the witch!

@Eva 30 sounds pretty young to me lol.

I get that some tweaked to the spirit regen of a halfling, but other col are every other race. That's a non issue in my book, and part of the overall mechanic problem. Anyway that's also a non issue fundamentally. What is needed is perhaps some better race balance? I am not sure...

Again, not my objective to address the details the game designers must encompass, I care about fixing completely obsolete signs, and good game balance.

That said, this isn't a debate in my books. The people arguing against a review have attempted to turn it into a debate, at times rather nastily, but it is simply calling for a review becaus of obsolete signs / mechanics. Anyone not being constructive in that process is a troll.

Even the GM's want to avoid this conundrum because they fear the backlash LO, and that is the bigger truth.

@crime said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

@Eva 30 sounds pretty young to me lol.

I get that some tweaked to the spirit regen of a halfling, but other col are every other race. That's a non issue in my book, and part of the overall mechanic problem. Anyway that's also a non issue fundamentally. What is needed is perhaps some better race balance? I am not sure...

Again, not my objective to address the details the game designers must encompass, I care about fixing completely obsolete signs, and good game balance.

That said, this isn't a debate in my books. The people arguing against a review have attempted to turn it into a debate, at times rather nastily, but it is simply calling for a review becaus of obsolete signs / mechanics. Anyone not being constructive in that process is a troll.

Even the GM's want to avoid this conundrum because they fear the backlash LO, and that is the bigger truth.

I find it highly amusing that you tacked on a completely unnecessary comment about how people opposing your view have debated "nastily" at times. While reading through this entire thread, I've seen you call people names, call their intelligence into question and be an overall prickly and argumentative person. Almost exclusively throwing out the insult gauntlet first.

There is merit on both sides of this argument, and perhaps instead of lashing out and completely ignoring the other side of the argument, you could try and understand it and why some people don't agree with you. My suggestion, in the future, is that if you just wish to speak directly to Simutronics, use Feedback where the only answer you will receive will be from staff. A forum is a place for debate, discussion and back and forth, don't expect to post something there that opposes the opinions of other people without receiving some argument back and forth. Calling anyone who disagrees with you a troll in a weak attempt to negate their point of view, despite the numerous sound and valid arguments made in this thread, seems to be the roadblock here to any real discussion on the point.

Now it's clear to me that your only reasoning for wanting a CoL review is because of the parts of it that don't work for your character(s) and not something that the population, as a whole has agrees with. If that's the case, you're welcome to your opinion, but Simu is never going to revamp and entire society based on the unhappy minority.

@Riend actually the only obsolete parts I'm talking about are parts that are obsolete for everyone. I like the parts that work for a rogue.

Nice rant though :)

@crime said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

@Riend actually the only obsolete parts I'm talking about are parts that are obsolete for everyone. I like the parts that work for a rogue.

Nice rant though :)

Really, have you actually ran a poll to get everyone's opinion on the matter? Because so far, everyone in this thread has disagreed with you.

That's just not true, read from thr start, but you do seem sour on the idea. Many of the contributors to this thread would like to attack the idea, and to distract from it attack my interests. Typical.

You seem more sour towards me than any rational thought on the concept of fixing signs that never get used. The fact you attacked my motivations rather than discuss the topic shows that.

Have a nice day.

Anyway, a poll would never work for this, it would be too polarized / skewed.

The GM statement saying we'd never like a review in itself is too damaging to a constructive outcome. People would vote against out of knee jerk reaction.

I see nothing wrong with fixing signs that no profession ever uses though, and the sour reaction is caused in no small part by GM comments.

Telling us they'll make us all unhappy if they reviewed it is a sad thing.

@crime

@crime said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

That's just not true, read from thr start, but you do seem sour on the idea. Many of the contributors to this thread would like to attack the idea, and to distract from it attack my interests. Typical.

You seem more sour towards me than any rational thought on the concept of fixing signs that never get used. The fact you attacked my motivations rather than discuss the topic shows that.

Have a nice day.

Everyone who has mentioned they would like to see a review, has called for an RP review. Not a review of the mechanics. Of course that would require you to actually look at this objectively, something you seem unwilling to do. I went back and looked at it. While a handful of people came up with some idea that could be useful, no one aside from yourself has outright called for the review of the mechanical aspects of CoL.

As for being sour towards you? Not particularly. I'm fairly ambivalent about you, but the way you've conducted yourself in this thread most definitely leaves something to be desired. I'm glad that the only thing you took from my posts was my attacking your motivations, that really puts into perspective the way you view any constructive criticism towards your person.

I have posted throughout this thread my opinions about the state of CoL, the RP around CoL and the ramifications of a review of the society, all of which were done without attacking anyone. If you consider my previous post an attack on you but you feel that the insults you've tossed out to people as "OK," then I'm pretty sure we're not going to be able to come to a general understanding of one another.

I would definitely like to see an RP review of CoL, the whole lodge and grand poohbear and the outright dislocation of this particular society with everything else RP-wise from the game is an eyesore.

The mechanics? Feh, I don't even hunt using any of my society buffs. #Hardcore

@god said in COL review - GM response at Simucon needs rethink.:

The mechanics? Feh, I don’t even hunt using any of my society buffs. #Hardcore

Whoa. That is hardcore.

I want those society buffs so bad, I start any new characters in a society at level 4 and start grinding immediately. I try and have CoL girls mastered by level 10, GoS by 18. Unsure how long Voln takes these days, haven't mastered on anyone since my main did such for the third time years back.

Why level 4? You can join CoL at level 3.

Ooooo. Nice!