Official: Weighting/Padding/Sighting Revamp!

@Wyrom posted Weighting/Padding/Sighting Revamp!

The great dwarven blacksmiths of Elanthia have perfected methods that allow the weighting and padding of items to coexist with other magical properties that have previously not been possible! The dwarves have a lot to share here, so grab some ale and take a seat.

• *Weighting / Padding / Sighting Rescale

One of the major goals of redesigning the system was to open up Weighting/Padding/Sighting (from here referred to as W/P/S) services from behind the auction quality service wall due to its power level. To accomplish this, the numbers have been rescaled to create a system that benefits at lower amounts of W/P/S but maintains game balance as players work towards higher amounts.

At a high level, the new values follow the following chart | | | | |-|-|-| Old value| New value| Padding Name 1| 10 | Lightly 2| 20 | Lightly
3| 30 | Fairly
4| 40 | Fairly 5| 50 | Somewhat 6| 70 | Somewhat 7| 90 | Decently 8| 110 | Decently 9| 130 | Heavily 10| 150 | Heavily 11| 180 | Very Heavily 12| 210 | Very Heavily 13| 240 | Very Heavily 14| 270 | Exceptionally 15| 300 | Exceptionally 16| 340 | Masterfully 17| 380 | Masterfully 18| 420 | Masterfully 19| 460 | Masterfully 20| 500 | Masterfully 25| 1000 | Superbly 30| 1500 | Expertly 40| 2500 | Fantastically 45| 3500 | Incredibly 50| 5000 | Wondrously

Simply put, the amount of W/P/S needed to go from old style 39 to 40 points (100) is significantly more than the amount needed to go from old style 4 to 5 (10) points. The old values are now breakpoints at which the combat effectiveness of the W/P/S are fed into the combat systems, and very little has changed in how they are used in combat. The new values provide a means to advance the weapon in a more granular way. The above chart shows the lowest value required to achieve that level of combat effectiveness, with additional points working towards the next increase in combat effectiveness.

• Item Enhancement

W/P/S properties of armor and weapons have been moved into a dedicated attributes. Doing this will open the possibility of item systems that have been previously blocked due to overlap.

Permanent item enhancements such as flares/permabless/TD/Defender/etc will now be able to be on the same item as a W/P/S item. Adding these properties to currently W/P/S items will still be auction type wins, but adding W/P/S to items with those existing properties will be allowed as the system has been build around allowing W/P/S services on these items.

Temporary item enhancements such as blessing, guiding light flares, and eblade will be castable on W/P/S items up to specific limits, and with reduced effectiveness than a non-W/P/S item. This includes reduction to the AS bonus, flare potency, and/or charge counts of the temporary enhancement. As a general guideline, anything that assess at heavy and over will not accept a temporary flare, and will be very challenging to bless for all but the most skillful clerics. Consecrate (1604) will be very beneficial towards the blessing of weapons, especially those with more than heavy weighting.

W/P/S items are now also player enchantable, and no special temper potion is required! A difficulty penalty to success that correlates to the amount of W/P/S on the item, very similarly to ensorcell. Ensorcell difficulty penalties will remain the same in the new system. The penalty only increases when enough services have been acquired to actually increase the combat effectiveness of an item. An item that is "in between" combat effectiveness levels does not increase in difficulty until the next level has been reached.

Last but not least in the space of item properties is that each W/P/S type now occupies its own attribute, meaning items can now have both CRIT and DAMAGE weighting or padding, and both will be applied during each combat interaction that would normally benefit from them.

• Services Model

Moving to the above rescale allows W/P/S services to be offered more commonly at events, and even through automated NPCs. W/P/S offerings will be at most events, big or small, free or otherwise. Wandering merchants may also offer the service on occasion. While it is debuting at Duskruin as a bloodscrip service, it will be offered for silvers at most other venues. The system is built to replace the randomness of limited raffle wins and reward consistent progression.

A 60 day Service Window is started at the first W/P/S on an item. Every W/P/S service done to that item within that 60 days will increase the Service Count within that window. Items will become more expensive to work on as the Service Count increases. Prices increases happen at Service Counts of 5, 10, and 15, with significant prices increases starting at 20+. On the first service after 60 day Service Window ends, the Service Window and Service Counts are reset. Prices for low service counts will be accessible to most players, while those with deep pockets willing to pay more to push into higher service counts can make improvements faster.

Base item pricing will be determined based on the other attributes of the item, including (but not limited to) enchant, flares, resistances, scripts, etc. The price of a single service of W/P/S is consistent no matter how much of that W/P/S type is on the item, but there is a surcharge for other types of W/P/S on the same item.

• Item Conversion

Finally, current W/P/S items will be converted to the new system automatically by performing many normal game actions with the item. If you aren't sure, take it to your warrior friends to have them assess the item. These items will see no change in effectiveness on conversion, HCP armor is still HCP of the same value on the new scale.

• Note

The smithy at Duskruin is not open just yet so we can observe the system and make sure its stable. We'll be observing the system to make sure its operating like we expect and then will announce the opening of the smithy separately.

| | | | |:--------|-------------|----------|-| Services: | Padding Level: | Padding Name: 25 | 2 | Lightly 50 | 5 | Somewhat 75 | 6 | Somewhat 100 | 7 | Decently 125 | 8 | Decently 150 | 10 | Heavily 175 | 10 | Heavily 200 | 11 | Very Heavily 225 | 12 | Very Heavily 250 | 13 | Very Heavily 275 | 14 | Exceptionally 300 | 15 | Exceptionally 325 | 15 | Exceptionally 350 | 16 | Masterfully 375 | 16 | Masterfully 400 | 17 | Masterfully 425 | 18 | Masterfully 450 | 18 | Masterfully 475 | 19 | Masterfully 500 | 20 | Masterfully

OK. That's different.

At first blush, this looks pretty awesome.

I'm definitely going to have to let that sink in and reread it to completely understand it, but it doesn't seem too bad.

I wonder if it is possible to Voln bless something with a heavy amount of weighting?

The full 25 services equal less than a point worth of padding for tens of thousands of BS?

Let the scrip fire sales begin!

Zissu posted http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Hunting%20and%20Combat/Weighting%20and%20Padding/view/78

Am I correct in assuming that the 25 max "services" at Duskruin correlate to 25 "points" on the new system? * This is correct, services provided by the NPC are 1 point per service. The 25 service limit is our limit for this Duskruin. Future merchants may or may not have a limit (other than your wealth).

That would mean 2 yrs of DR (at 2 per yr) to add what is now (or was) HCP. * This won't be strictly at DR. W/P/S merchants can show up as random merchants, at small festivals, etc.

How does the new system scale with sigil padding. * Systems outside of weapons/armor have not changed. You will still get the same combat effectiveness from this, mage armor, etc as you did before.

Brinret Questions * 1. Razern adds to any other weighting that might be on the item, it is not separate. * 2. Same with katanas/claids. Claids are still very challenging to work with in other systems. * 3. Only in any system they typically do. Example is blessing lore assists in blessing an item normally, so that benefit is carried over to weighted items. * 4. For price, yes, adding damage weighting to a claid fairly expensive. For combat, no, the two don't affect the other. * 5. A major part of this system was building the servicing model, so we've done a lot around the numbers in terms of cost of getting to claid weighting on a flaring weapon. We don't have the same backwards calculations yet. * 6. Guiding light flares through 1625 are considered temporary enhancements, so as the weighting on the weapon goes up, the flare potency goes down.

Zissu - Combat and Magic Systems Dev Lackey

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Hunting%20and%20Combat/Weighting%20and%20Padding/view/85

Are crit weighting and damage weighting separate slots from sighting? Yes, but most of the merchants will strongly advise against it (block it) to make sure its not accidentally done since there is very little benefit.

I'm checking on tempering, if there is an issue I'll update here.

Zissu - Combat and Magic Systems Dev Lackey

This looks absolutely horrible.

Yeesh.

so ever since the weighting/padding update went live i have been UNABLE to put my masterwork crush fittings from my ARMOR SKILL on any padded armor . cant do it on my full plate , some leathers and even a DCP greathelm . If this is a bug please let me know , i am not able to finish a arena run without my crush fittings .

Yea I read that somewhere and responded but forgot to check. So I just tested on myself (with slash fittings):

```You adjust your rolaren plate armor with your plate armor fittings, rearranging and reinforcing the armor to better protect against slashing damage.

Roundtime: 20 sec.```

So it may just be you, or just crush fittings, or make sure existing fittings are not presently on the items.

@hoodtralfeck, there was an issue with the fittings, but Zissu fixed it.

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Hunting%20and%20Combat/Weighting%20and%20Padding/view/128

A few other questions I missed through the day today.

1) How is the gem-eating armor script affected by this change? * Nothing has changed with this script in terms of functionality, so both the flare and the padding attributes are controlled by the script, so no additional padding can be put on it.

2) How does the premium padding service work now? Does it still add 10 old (150 new) points of padding? Have the costs changed? * No change to the premium padding service. If you request PP padding on your armor, you would get 150pts to get to HCP armor.

3) Regarding W/P/S service costs. Are temporary buffs like 1625 paladin bonding or bless/eblade factored into the costs for the service? Meaning, do paladins need to unbond to their weapons in order to not pay more? * Temporary buffs like 925, bless, and eblade are ignored in the cost calculations. No need to unbond or strip them.

For clarification: is the W/P/S 60-day cooldown for prices combined between damage and critical, or are damage and critical weighting/padding costs calculated independently? * There is one service window and service count per item that are used for all types of W/P/S on the item.

Zissu - Combat and Magic Systems Dev Lackey

temporary buffs like 925...

Is this a slip of another change to come?!?!?

Quote from GM Wyrom: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Hunting%20and%20Combat/Weighting%20and%20Padding/view/140

Just wanted to touch base on some of the comments. Likely a long post. No tl;dr offered.

1) How is the gem-eating armor script affected by this change? These armors were sold at the recent Grand Auction. The script includes the ability to create very heavy critical padding or damage padding (I'm assuming 12 points on the old scale). It couldn't be padded under the old system since the script apparently took up the flare/padding slot, too.

The armor should be totally updated into the new system, so that spot should get freed up for something else. I can look a little more in depth if you notice an issue.

Does it create its padding in the new slot, thus blocking the new W/P/S service?

Yes, armors that generate their own padding will all go into the new slot, thus making it ineligible for additional padding.

2) How does the premium padding service work now? Does it still add 10 old (150 new) points of padding? Have the costs changed?

Nothing has changed, Premium padding is still the same price and is still HCP.

Have the costs changed for premium flaring and premium enchanting W/P/S items?

Surcharges for other properties have not yet been determined, but it will be soon.

3) Regarding W/P/S service costs. Are temporary buffs like 1625 paladin bonding or bless/eblade factored into the costs for the service? Meaning, do paladins need to unbond to their weapons in order to not pay more?

It should not. If you feel it does, post about it.

Wyrom lied.

This comment seems to stem from two areas, last April's Duskruin and the State of Elanthia (SoE) keynote where I spoke about lower amounts of weighting/padding being more accessible. This is still the plan.

The NPC blacksmith (smithy) that will do the services is being debuted at Duskruin with a service cap and bloodscrip cost, but it will be offered beyond this event very often. Not just pay events. The frequency of this service will be much greater during normal gameplay than at pay events. GM Merchants are also going to be able to offer this a lot more as well. Prior to this update, we very rarely offered anything beyond "heavy" with services. It wasn't until CCF/RtCF that we worked on items beyond 8x or HCP/HCW. And even then, we had capped amounts of points we were allowed to allocate to items. The majority of players under the old ways of releases were always locked out of these types of services. We never did a whole lot per year.

I know the "lied" comment stems into padding, because there was a padding certificate for unpadded armor that was significantly cheaper. The padded armor (and weighted weapons) was outrageously expensive though. People wanting to go from 10 points to 15 points couldn't justify the cost. Here are the stats for all of 2016 though, the year we had the certificates.

April 2016
Quantity Silver Total Bloodscrip Total Item
0 0 0 a crumpled Open Weighting award 0 0 0 a ripped Flat Weighting note
2 0 337500 a small Open Padding deed
7 0 237177 a pink Flat Padding contract
August 2016
6 0 315500 a pink Flat Padding contract
3 0 675000 a small Open Padding deed
2 0 225000 a ripped Flat Weighting note
3 0 750000 a crumpled Open Weighting award

These numbers don't include the opening day of the Scrip Shop, but as you can see, these certificates didn't generate a lot of interest at their price points. While I know looking at historic data on items sold isn't the best way to gauge demand or desire, it did show us something wasn't working well with it. Either way, the W/P/S review began before Duskruin 2017, which is one of the primary reasons those certificates were pulled.

There were a few things during the SoE that were not explained in full details, and due to that, led to some misunderstandings. Moving forward, we need to have SoE front loaded so these types of misunderstandings can get cleared up during SimuCon. I ended up having to leave right after that because I had to get right back to work on Duskruin.

When the W/P/S pricing started taking shape, I had a different impression of it. To say I lied to you is not true, I just had a different understanding at the lower amounts. I used lightly at SoE because the numbers showed how easy and feasible it was. I wasn't made aware of the pricing structure to get up to heavy until a little more recently. At first, I had the same amount of concern that some of you are having. But as it was pointed out to me, the system allows a lot more flexibility as well as service allowance. And it frees up the slot on your item for something else. Choosing flares over lightly weighting or AS boosts over lightly padding was a no brainer prior to this update. Now you don't have to. You can easily have a few points of crit padding, damage padding, and TD on a single armor piece. Or a damage weighted, crit weighted, and defender weapon.

The smithy is just the debut for this new system. The best advice I can offer is that if you're not a fan of the smithy's pricing because it's tied into bloodscrip, hold off on getting this service. Ways to pay silver will be around the corner. I'll also see if there is something we can do for the people who were anticipating "heavy" being offered, but keep in mind with the figures above that it wasn't a quick and easy sale for the majority. Duskruin will allow people to get a head start with improving their items. GM Zissu also pointed out that there is a number at which the pricing will be very cheap if you don't use all 25 services at once.

There are a lot of people that have been working on this update, Zissu being lead, but most of the Development team has been involved. As much as everyone thinks I'm involved in every decision, I can tell you I'm not. GM Coase has been on staff since 2002 and has a very sharp understanding of a lot of the mechanical facets of our game. I trust his decision making. All of my Senior GameMasters oversee their individual teams and make most the decisions on projects, approvals, and so on. I'm not a massive micromanager. We do a lot of collaborative work and there is a very decentralized management structure when it comes to game updates. I have a great understanding of the game, but GM Coase is who I'd call an expert when it comes to the core game mechanics. GM Estild is an expert on our core magic systems. GM Finros is an expert on our core combat systems. They know a lot more than me in their areas of expertise. No single person is pulling the trigger though. We all work really hard on this game to bring you a final product that's worth playing.

I've been working every day since SimuCon for anywhere between 12 to 15 hours each day. Saturday was the first day that I got to do something with my son since July (we went mini golfing, but even that got delayed due to the game crashing). I'm trying really hard to make sure we continue to offer players new and interesting ways to play the game. This update was a big thing for the game and itemization. We'll keep discussing these changes though, and I'm sure tweaks will be often. While you might think I'm just pressing buttons and creating cash grabs, I'm actually dedicating all my time and energy to this game to make sure it lasts a long time. You're welcome to your opinion of me and how I do things, but my goals are in the best interest of GemStone IV.

Wyrom, PM

Quote from GM Coase: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Hunting%20and%20Combat/Weighting%20and%20Padding/view/142

One important thing I would like to emphasize is this is explicitly -not- a "Duskruin" implementation. While this was released during a Duskruin event and it made sense to have the merchant aspect debut at the ongoing event, this is an expansion to the entire game and not just something that is only for players that attend pay events. It is, in fact, a major update to all gear, as you can now have pretty much any armor padded or any weapon weighted/sighted and any existing weighted/padded items have become much more useful:

-You can now bless it to varying degrees. -You can now eblade it to varying degrees. -You can now enchant it. -You can now stack it with many other properties.

You now also have the very easily accessible option of steadily improving pretty much any gear that you have with a benefit that, due to the above, no longer comes with quite so many restrictions. While it may seem underwhelming to only be able to put 2 points of weighting on a fresh item at this one event, that two points is now quite a lot better than two points was a few days ago, since it no longer restricts you in quite so many ways. It is also important to note that since this Duskruin is the very first outing of the system, we made the decision to be very conservative with access to make sure the system is actually working as it should. It wouldn't be ideal for either side if we allowed unlimited services, only to need to refund large amounts of purchases if it turned out that price or other changes needed to be made.

Cost and time-wise, while the prices will vary significantly based upon the exact attributes of your item, we have designed the system such that if you want to to gradually improve your 5x weapon from 0 to heavy weighting over a few years, you can do it for less than 12k bloodscrip (and will be able to break up part of that cost into silvers too) or for around 9m if you go the all-silvers route (silvers is the primary currency that we designed this for, BTW, not scrip or any other alternate currency).

If you want to do it faster, then you also have the -option- to pay more, either silver or scrip. And the option to pay silvers was pretty much completely unavailable outside of pay events in the past. That will not be the case going forward. Wandering merchants can and will offer services for your gear. Merchants at free events will offer these services. Going to pay events will offer opportunities for guaranteed access and the option to pay in alternative currencies but, again, this is a game expansion, not a Duskruin or pay event expansion. It is for everyone, whether you grind bloodscrip or just want to play the game and improve your favorite pieces of gear over time.

Coase

Quote from GM Coase: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Hunting%20and%20Combat/Weighting%20and%20Padding/view/149

This is true and what I love about the new system. But the kill-buzz is thinking just how long is it going to take me to get to something like +10 crit padding, +10 damage padding, and +TD or flares on my armor? Half a decade or thousands of upfront dollars or a prohibitive amount of silvers? I guess I'll have to wait and see.

The combination of armor properties you're describing was pretty hard to achieve at all just a few days ago. It would have definitely required many years of waiting for very rare raffle/auction wins -or- paying a lot of money across multiple events. What these changes have done is give you a clear definable path to achieving that goal and allow you to make decisions based upon that information. There was no path in the past, just hoping that an event -might- offer one part of that service and then hoping that you could jump through all the correct hoops while also hoping that someone else didn't beat you to it.

effective levels of W/P/S

One of the driving forces behind this change was to make -any- level of W/P/S "effective". In the past, adding small amounts of W/P/S to an item actively made it worse because you were taking a heavy opportunity cost to have that 1 point of weighting. It closed off improvement and use avenues. That is no longer the case.

based on the foreshadowed DR implementation

This system is not a Duskruin implementation. Further, this Duskruin run is explicitly limited far more than what we expect to allow once we are confident that the system is working as intended.

Coase

Quote from GM Zissu: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Hunting%20and%20Combat/Weighting%20and%20Padding/view/167

Regarding the armor accessories over armor, you're saying as long as one of the two parts of the equation has both types of padding, you won't see a halving of padding? Not quite. - Having 2 types of padding on the same item have no effect on each other. - Having torso armor and an accessory of the same type of padding will choose the larger of the two. - Having one of the two with padding, and the other with another attribute (including a different type of padding) will halve the padding benefit.

The reasoning behind this is if all of these properties are on the same item, the servicing aspect of those items is calculated accordingly. When split across two items, it would make those items serviceable independently much cheaper while providing the same benefit.

Could we see a change to assessing or loresong that will show how far into a padding/weighting cycle an item is?

It's something I'd like to do.

Lastly, if it's currently tempering, is it eligible for a service?

Yes.

Zissu - Combat and Magic Systems Dev Lackey

Quote from GM Zissu:

How does this work with a suit of armor with flares or TD in the primary slot and padding of one or both types in the W/P/S slot? Is the padding in this case also not halved since all of the service types are on the one piece of armor? If so, this is another great change with this new system. Correct, if its all on one piece of armor, you've paid (through servicing mechanics) for the ability to have both benefits fully active in combat, so nothing is halved. Halving only comes into play when both accessories and torso armor are present and of different attributes.

Also, for W/P/S service costs how does having 2 different types of weighting or padding interact? Costs for servicing do not increase with the amount of the type you are updating. If adding more crit weighting costs 10000 silver on your item, that price is the same if its your 1st point of weighting or your 2500th. In your scenario, you would pay a surcharge for the 150pts of critical weighting because its a different attribute, but no charge for the existing damage weighting.

Related to that question, are the 5000 point service caps exclusive of each other or is that combined, ie you could only get 2500 of both or you could get 5000 of both. It currently caps out at 5000 total weighting.

Gem armor I re-read the script, Mario was more correct than me. With padding moved out, the previously used attribute is now fully open. I don't want to comment on IF it would be allowed, but its technical feasible.

PP Premium Padding isn't changing to being additive, it will still take you to 150pts.

So... sighting on e-bows... yes? no? May not be a one size fits all answer, but in general yes.

Zissu - Combat and Magic Systems Dev Lackey

Quote from GM Coase:

The updated scale is for merchant services on gear. That scale is translated into the old effect numbers when it comes time to calculate combat benefits. GoS sigils, mage armor, etc don't operate through gear, they continue to operate directly within the combat system. Their interactions with combat are unchanged.

Coase

Quote from GM Haliste: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Paid%20Events:%20Adventures,%20Quests,%20and%20SimuCoins/Duskruin%20Arena/view/7846

If you're talking about Greater Elemental Certificates, that is a script. TD Bonus is something else entirely and uses the slot previously used by weighting/padding.

Weighting: weighting slot Padding: padding slot Greater Elemental: script slot TD: property slot Flares: property slot

Flares and TD use the same slot, and since the Greater Elemental script uses both the script slot AND the property slot (for a flare), it wouldn't work to add TD on that one. I know that wasn't your question, but figured I'd add that for clarity's sake.

~ Haliste ~ The Forest Gnome of Silverwood Manor ASGM, Events

Omrii: Okay, thanks Haliste. You're way better than Wyrom.

Quote from GM Haliste: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Paid%20Events:%20Adventures,%20Quests,%20and%20SimuCoins/Duskruin%20Arena/view/7848

Greater Elemental script requires that the weapon be flared. In order to have flares, it takes up that property slot. So, script + property slot are taken up if you have the Greater Elemental script on your weapon.

~ Haliste ~ The Forest Gnome of Silverwood Manor ASGM, Events

Omrii: Okay, thanks Haliste. You're way better than Wyrom.

Pro Tip:

Copy/paste their message. But for each new line put a * in front of the thing.

... * Weighting: weighting slot (next line) * Padding: padding slot

vs

• Weighting: weighting slot
• Padding: padding slot

Makes it a little easier to read until the 1 return = new line is fixed/updated. @ondreian @horibu

It takes a little bit of manual editing instead of just copy/pasting from the officials. Their double >> also means you have to delete one of the > or you get that funny drop down box.

@Alastir Fixed, forgot the upgrade put it back to default setting.

No.

Quote from GM Zissu:

I've had a few questions around the interaction of weighting/padding and the temporary item benefits. In all instances below, the sum of all weighting/padding types on the item is used to calculate the effectiveness.

1) Blessing weapons with weighting is reduced in potency by reducing the number of charges of bless the weapon holds. The more weighting on the item, the fewer swings you will receive when blessing it.

2) Temporary flares from eblade, holy water (bless), and guiding light will have the potency of the flare (how hard they hit) reduced by weighting/padding on the item. This is calculated on every flare, so the order in which the enhancements are placed on the item does not matter. This starts at 1 point of combat effectiveness, and essentially caps out at heavy (10) points of effectiveness. Trying to apply temp flares on something heavy or over will block it outright.

3) Eblade +AS bonus works in the same way, having the items +AS scale downwards with the amount of weighting, starting at 1 point of combat effectiveness and resulting at no bonus at heavily weighted.

4) Guiding Light from paladin bonding follows the same rules above. Guiding Light flares will automatically fall off the item some short time after it reaches heavy.

So here's a thought. What prevents someone from using up all 20 or 25 services at Dusk then pass the weapon to an alt or friend and have him use up all 25 services on the same weapon then pass along to a friend... etc?

@god said in Official: Weighting/Padding/Sighting Revamp!:

So here's a thought. What prevents someone from using up all 20 or 25 services at Dusk then pass the weapon to an alt or friend and have him use up all 25 services on the same weapon then pass along to a friend... etc?

Services are tracked per item, not per person.

@0zymandius Duh, that makes sense! Thanks for the clear up.

I've also noticed one tidbit on GM-Zissu's post. Previously weighted weapons will not be allowed to have flares or other goodies added to them, basically pre-revamp rules, while weapons without any weighting but has a flare can have any type of weighting added to them. Gives a big bonus for people starting from scratch.

~~Estild also commented~~ I remember a discussion on Discord that, at least for now, it's much more reliable to find weighting under the new system than to find flares, so most project will start with flaring weapons/armor and add weighting/padding, rather than the other way around.

I have a few sets of flaring armor that I'll be padding soon.

Does someone want to take a stab at the new order of upgrading equipment in terms of ease of services?

For example, if I wanted to enchant, pad, and ensorcell armor which order would you go about doing it?

for fresh armor:

enchant > ensorcell > pad

for already padded armor HCP or less:

ensorcell > enchant > pad

for already padded armor > HCPed:

this becomes more murky, because the difficulties carry many more tradeoffs and it so far seems unlikely that a "mortal" mage can enchant tier 5 armor that is > HCPed beyond 4 or 5x, so the question devolves into what do you need to maximize: td, ds, or padding?

These are just my preliminary results across my plethora of armor. I also do not have a capped mage, but mine is specced for enchanting at level 50

*assuming that you are talking about mage enchanting, if you are talking about merchant enchanting with no regards for cost the order of operations to pretty much the same

@ondreian said in Official: Weighting/Padding/Sighting Revamp!:

for fresh armor:

enchant > ensorcell > pad

for already padded armor HCP or less:

ensorcell > enchant > pad

for already padded armor > HCPed:

this becomes more murky, because the difficulties carry many more tradeoffs and it so far seems unlikely that a "mortal" mage can enchant tier 5 armor that is > HCPed beyond 4 or 5x, so the question devolves into what do you need to maximize: td, ds, or padding?

These are just my preliminary results across my plethora of armor. I also do not have a capped mage, but mine is specced for enchanting at level 50

I think padding it last is going to be the way to go, too, though I am currently thinking that it might be better to pause at 7-8x to ensorcell before adding padding, given what I've been seeing. I've heard that an enchanting-dedicated mage can enchant high-enchant/padded/t5 items while an ensorcell-dedicated sorcerer caps out earlier on high-enchant/padded gear. Anyone able to speak to that?

I'm currently enchanting some 30% resistant armor to 10x and planning to pad and ensorcell, so I'm very curious how this discussion plays out. My current plan is to add some padding at DR while it's on its last temper to 7x, do the 7x enchant, then take it to 8x while the 60-day timer ticks down, then ensorcell it, and then finish taking it to 10x while slowly adding padding. One way or another, I'll end up figuring out where the barrier is, I expect.

Question: Can you ensorcell an item that's tempering?

I need to see how much it costs to Pad 0x. It sounds like getting gear up to 6-7x is very doable with even heavy padding.

@wyrom @estild One of things I would like to see is make all the pathways for improving gear about the same in terms of costs, that way I don't have to 'sit out' on a Duskruin because my gear 'isn't ready yet'.

@archsenex said in Official: Weighting/Padding/Sighting Revamp!:

Estild also commented on Discord that, at least for now, it's much more reliable to find weighting under the new system than to find flares, so most project will start with flaring weapons/armor and add weighting/padding, rather than the other way around.

I have a few sets of flaring armor that I'll be padding soon.

I don't recall that. I may have been responding to a question that was asked sooner, then another question regarding that was asked, so when I answered it looked like I was answering the latter, but it was really the former? I don't recall the odds for either off the top of my head.

@estild said in Official: Weighting/Padding/Sighting Revamp!:

@archsenex said in Official: Weighting/Padding/Sighting Revamp!:

Estild also commented on Discord that, at least for now, it's much more reliable to find weighting under the new system than to find flares, so most project will start with flaring weapons/armor and add weighting/padding, rather than the other way around.

I have a few sets of flaring armor that I'll be padding soon.

I don't recall that. I may have been responding to a question that was asked sooner, then another question regarding that was asked, so when I answered it looked like I was answering the latter, but it was really the former? I don't recall the odds for either off the top of my head.

Things were kind of flying. However the statement is reasonable either way.

Right now, there is no reliable source of flares, they're still behind raffles etc.

A few quotes from GM Estild on the Discord:

NOTE: Some of these comments don't have to do with the Weighting/Padding revamp but are still interesting.

Estild - Temporarily padded/weighted items cannot be tempered/enchanted.

(Regarding power creep and enemy design)

Estild - Everyday creatures won't. When we tackle postcap development, it's safe to assume we won't be balancing said creatures around 4x plain gear.

(Regarding non-standard flare enchanting)

Estild - No immediate plans, but it's always possible (that doesn't mean no - I would have answered the same to this question in regard to weighting/padding a year ago!)

(Regarding essences of elements for enchanting)

Estild - More of those drop than are actually used or needed.

Estild - There's some huge perceived value, which resulted in wizards paying more than they're probably actually worth - probably because most wizards wanted to immediately start enchanting their flaring equipment after they were released. But now, there's no reason to overpay for them.

(Regarding enchanting and item loss)

Estild - Tempered items should never be destroyed anymore, under any circumstance. If it happens, it's a bug.

Estild - Yep. It's a sure way to demotivate someone, encouraging them to immediately log off and regret playing. A game should never do that.

Estild - Temporary consequences are okay, but not when it games to items which players invest years of time and huge amounts of silver into.

(Regarding enchanting bane weapons and using lightening certs on parasite weapons)

Estild - Not currently, but it's possible.

Estild - I believe you just need to BUGITEM the parasite weapon and mention using your lightening note on it. Those requests are reviewed and periodically approved. Or also ask about it on the forums for @Haliste to review.

Sparked - I just hope disarm is tackled before post cap dev.

Estild - It will be.

@Evarin thanks for all your excellent work aggregating these materials & conversations

@Estild

Wow, Postcap Creature development. So much you guys can do with this, it's an open field. I would even consider moving them away from the randomly wandering critters like 1-100 is now and focus on more team oriented critters, those are a ton of fun. Hunting alone is so not Gemstone's style.

BTW, gotta make them brutal man. I mean B-R-U-T-A-L. #BringBackTheChallenge !

Possible "Level 150 Critter"

You know you want to, do eet ! #PeerPressure

@god said in Official: Weighting/Padding/Sighting Revamp!:

@Estild

Wow, Postcap Creature development. So much you guys can do with this, it's an open field. I would even consider moving them away from the randomly wandering critters like 1-100 is now and focus on more team oriented critters, those are a ton of fun. Hunting alone is so not Gemstone's style.

BTW, gotta make them brutal man. I mean B-R-U-T-A-L. #BringBackTheChallenge !

Only recently did players start teaming up enough to justify team content. I assume this dr was a probe onto that. Imagine if 5 on 5 battles happened with group buffs on enemies etc. Would be cool.

@archsenex

Would be so badass man! I really think team combat is a untapped gem of Gemstone, we 're so used to just hunting alone or even script hunting that the actual gameplay fun is sapped out. So excited if this is the path for Post-Cap development!

@god said in Official: Weighting/Padding/Sighting Revamp!:

Possible "Level 150 Critter"

You know you want to, do eet ! #PeerPressure

Ha forgot about that.

But I noticed a serious problem - Giantman not hooman!

@roblar Just have to get Wyrom to change you. Can't have the meme being wrong. That sounds like the easiest solution.

:(

@roblar Fine, I can't say no to your puppy dog eyes. Fixed.

You should have hack pasted it over human. This high quality replacement angers me.

Nice. Then Estild gets evil and makes an undead Paladin which can cast pious trial adding 36 seconds between Roblar's mstrikes.

It's cool, berserk suffers no rt

Quotes from GM Estild: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Hunting%20and%20Combat/Weighting%20and%20Padding/view/210 (

PROPHETQ - This was mentioned in the revamp thread, but I hadn't seen an update. Moving to a new thread so it isn't lost in the noise. I am still unable to get 3x HCP armor to take a temper. When I check it with 925, I get the "Assuming {armor} can be tempered somehow" and the temper potion "merely evaporates without effect" if poured anyhow. (Repeating my full disclosure, this armor does have Anfelt scripts, but I don't believe those are what is blocking the ability to enchant.) Any news on when this might be fixed?

You should get a bard to loresing to the armor. There is more than likely another property that is blocking the temper.

JOEKUPS - did you assess the armor or otherwise use it so that it gets converted to the new system automatically? I believe it won't temper until that happens.

The first time you GET any piece combat equipment or use it in combat, it will automatically be converted. It doesn't need to actually be ASSESSED (and the latter doesn't do anything more than the former). The only times it would not automatically convert is if there was an actual problem with the item (unlikely, but possible) or if you were holding the item at the time of release and haven't stowed yet (thus have no had no need to actually GET ).

GameMaster Estild

Quote from GM Estild: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Paid%20Events:%20Adventures,%20Quests,%20and%20SimuCoins/Duskruin%20Arena/view/7904 (7908)

Falvicar - "That means 6 possible services in 1 year if doing full monty of 25 each and every time then it's 150 points a year"

Just to clear this up, since I've seen it referenced a few times. There is no actual cap to the number of services you can get within a service window (60 days). For the initial Duskruin run, we did limit it to 25, but that's mostly to ensure the system works as intended. There could be numerous merchants within a 60 day timespan that offer it and you end up with more than 25. The only limitation built into the system is cost. The more often you upgrade your gear, the more you'll have to pay. But the option is entirely yours - take longer and get it done cheaper, or speed up the process, but pay more. As a point of reference, it takes a Premium subscriber 2.5 years just to get heavy crit padding on basic 4x armor.

GameMaster Estild

CHUCK3B - "Estild, is the cost escalator per item or is it per account? In other words, if I had a project lance-of-doom and platemail-of-invulnerability I was building, does the cost escalator apply to each item individually or to me as an account?"

The service window and count is tied to the item.

GameMaster Estild

Quote from GM Zissu: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Hunting%20and%20Combat/Weighting%20and%20Padding/view/234

So, am I understanding right that with a combined 5,000 pt cap per item, instead of that final (old +5) crit weighting, I could instead pickup 1,500 points of damage weighting - ending with incredible crit weighting & expertly damage weighting (3,500 + 1,500), for reducing pricing due to the lower tiers and scale)?

You can achieve the combination of weighting for more potency, but not for reduced pricing. A service of damage weighting will cost you more than a service of critical weighting because adding damage weighting will calculate the existing critical weighting as a surcharge. You will get more combat effectiveness on the weapon for a higher price.

Zissu - Combat and Magic Systems Dev Lackey

Humans are the best!

Quote from GM Zissu: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Hunting%20and%20Combat/Weighting%20and%20Padding/view/241

Interaction question #3736382193783!

Let this be a lesson to anyone who thinks its a good idea to mess with something named "The charts of CLARITY"

Are adv guild flares considered temporary grade or permanent grade? Do you get them at full potency on hcp gear? Can you even add them?

I'll have to get back to you on this one.

Could a GM please confirm that if you had HCP + a minimum 1 point of damage padding (of the old scale), that if you put on an armour accessory that had either temp/perm exceptional damage padding that it would not cause halving of any kind?

Think of each padding calculation separately. When calculating crit padding at a hit location with both torso and an accessory covering, the item with the higher level of crit padding is chosen. Then the unchosen item is checked for other attributes and if one is found, the crit padding is halved. Damage padding is treated as an item attribute when calculating crit padding, just like spikes, resistance, and flares. This calculation is largely unchanged with this update except for the addition of a new attribute to check against.

I hear the desire now that its possible to revisit, its something I'll discuss with others.

How does this change affect the steel no-dachi released at the great auction last year? From what I understand it had 10 pts of weighting under the old system and would flare to 15. Does this still work the same under the new system? Can it have more weighting added to it?

Still works the same, and unfortunately cannot be added to as those are managed by the script. The new system won't let any more be added due to this.

Can it be enchanted and ensorceled now? Or is it still heavily restricted?

I'm not positive about these. I did not change any specific restrictions on this item.

Also, how does a razern katana work under the new system?

These should generate with 12pts of combat effectiveness.

Zissu - Combat and Magic Systems Dev Lackey

Quote from GM Zissu: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Hunting%20and%20Combat/Weighting%20and%20Padding/view/304

I spent more mental energy than I should have trying to figure out if drama armor was a script I wasn't aware of or not. Please assist if you haven't already so we can look at it. If the assisting GM can't help, a bugitem will make sure I know what to look for.

assess and more information

I'll be doing this shortly. This and item identification mechanisms like the AI crystal are my short list after the final bugs I have to wrap up.

assess values

Assess moved over to using scale values and because of that, the gaps in between in between two assess ranks go to the higher reading even though the combat effectiveness has not moved up yet. I'll address this with my assess changes.

Zissu - Combat and Magic Systems Dev Lackey

Quote from GM Zissu: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Hunting%20and%20Combat/Weighting%20and%20Padding/view/314

Most of the item identifying scripts have been updated to treat weighting/padding as if only one enhancement was allowed on the item. Since we went from allowing 1 property to allowing 3, it is very hard to get the intent of the original script owners messaging.

ex. You see "your armor has rainbows" might now say "your armor has rainbows and unicorns and death", which may or may not make sense to what the original messaging was trying to convey.

The where possible, I tried to merge and display if the item has both types of weighting or padding, but even that was fairly limited. I will however pass along the request to the script owners if they want to go back and update the messaging to support these new cases.

Zissu - Combat and Magic Systems Dev Lackey

Quote from GM Zissu: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Hunting%20and%20Combat/Weapon%20and%20Armor%20Discussion/view/303

These sheaths have already been updated as part of the WPS updates and appear to be working properly.

Blessing weighted weapons is dependent on the amount of charges the source would apply vs the amount of weighting on the item. Blessing sheaths typically apply a lot fewer charges than cleric or voln bless, so are more limited in the amount of weighting they will bless.

Zissu - Combat and Magic Systems Dev Lackey

Quote from GM Zissu: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Hunting%20and%20Combat/Weighting%20and%20Padding/view/341

Regarding adding services to hurling bandoliers via the new system.

Not currently. Mostly has to do with the fact that the tooling we made to make WPS changes doesn't know how to handle it. Not saying never, but not currently eligible.

Zissu - Combat and Magic Systems Dev Lackey

I'm mostly curious to know when they'll change the PP system so armor/weapons that normally couldn't be padded/weighted (due to TD, scripts, flares, etc) can be. Currently, still can't even pcalc my armor.

@riend said in Official: Weighting/Padding/Sighting Revamp!:

I'm mostly curious to know when they'll change the PP system so armor/weapons that normally couldn't be padded/weighted (due to TD, scripts, flares, etc) can be. Currently, still can't even pcalc my armor.

hopefully soon after ASSESS is fixed :)

@allereli said in Official: Weighting/Padding/Sighting Revamp!:

@riend said in Official: Weighting/Padding/Sighting Revamp!:

I'm mostly curious to know when they'll change the PP system so armor/weapons that normally couldn't be padded/weighted (due to TD, scripts, flares, etc) can be. Currently, still can't even pcalc my armor.

hopefully soon after ASSESS is fixed :)

Noooooo! I just hope I can PP pad my armor to HCP by EG in case they end up having padding merchants! Which might be a horrible idea, price-wise, but I don't think I really need anything higher than HCP or VHCP. If they're hitting me, I'm totally doing it wrong as a sniping rogue. =p

Quote from GM Zissu: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Hunting%20and%20Combat/Weighting%20and%20Padding/view/355

The service counter is a single counter no matter the method (GM Merchant/NPC) or the type being done. Going above 20 services is meant to be bit of a gut check. With your (quite amazing) weapon, the next (28th) service this window would cost you a grueling ~7.5m silver. That same service at the start of the next window is slightly under 300k.

I've been intently reading the feedback on the system because it is very different than previous gear improvement systems. One of our goals here was to make a more consistent improvement system focused around dedication over time instead of maximizing your luck. It is very different to have to set the limits based on what you want/can afford rather than having them gated behind a dice rolls. There were some useful patterns that came out of the Duskruin data in terms of where players found the value in cutting themselves off.

The 25 service limit from Duskruin was more of a limitation on the first run of an automated system, but you can start to see that this number is going to be at or near the top of the service count for most players anyways.

As far as EG, I don't have details and will let that come from those closer to it. The 60 day window is meant to coincide with the frequency of festivals. Having the window be 30 or 60 days was something we discussed. We didn't want people to feel like they 'missed the window' if they took a weekend trip and missed that month's festival or a traveling merchant, and 60 days makes sure you have multiple opportunities at that. That said, having everyone priced out of their service window during a major festival is not the intent either.

Zissu - Combat and Magic Systems Dev Lackey

Quote from GM Mazreth: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Hunting%20and%20Combat/Weighting%20and%20Padding/view/386

Only a handful were spun and there was a 5 service point limit. So availability is and a number of points are STILL being tightly controlled. At least that time it was for silvers and not cash.

To clarify Festival of the Fallen availability:

I had 50 spots of 5 pts each to offer for this festival. I did not block item passing and there were several items that got quite a bit of work. As this service is intended to be quite common, I'm not sure why the 5 pt per spin limit is raising issues. Raising item abilities drastically in a short time was, at least to my understanding, never the intent of the system.

Keep in mind this was the first time it was offered for silvers, which was itself a brand new system.

~Mazreth