Official: Wiki Moderation and Management

142
Evarin
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 7:19:28 AM

Quote from GM Wyrom:

I wanted to take a moment to address some concerns about the wiki.

When Simutronics acquired the Krakiipedia, the wiki became an official source of documentation. While the wiki will remain player-driven, our GameMasters will also continue to correct outdated and erroneous information. This has been a work in progress, and we still need to make it more clear which articles are considered official.

During the transition from the Krakiipedia to the GS Wiki, a number of players stood out and helped us with the overwhelming tasks of formatting and correcting the wiki. Many of these players became our first moderators of the wiki. These are the key people who helped shape the wiki for us and pushed for a style guide that we strive to use.

Our lead moderator is currently Allereli. She has put in a vast number of hours and continues to uphold to the standards that were set forth. If you look at her contributions, you can quickly see the huge investment of her time and heavy amount of edits she has performed.

I do realize everyone puts in a lot of effort into the wiki, especially when you spend a lot of time formatting and adding information. It is not a slight to anyone if one of our moderator steps in to either inform you of some needed formatting changes or to lock down a page until things get clarified. This is what they were set to uphold when they became a moderator for our wiki.

One of the concerns that recently came up are when a moderator locks a page or reverts some information. Again we realize a lot of effort goes into these edits. Be mindful that if something is official documentation or an article was edited by a GameMaster, it's something that should get signed off on before making an edit. Using the Village Pump or the Discussion Tab at the top of each article is the best way to communicate an edit.

We appreciate everything everyone does for our wiki. You all help make the GemStone IV community informed and keep documentation more easily to find.

Wyrom, PM

GS4Menos
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 9:17:51 AM

I'm not sure that really addresses the complaints as far as I've seen them.

viekn
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 9:22:09 AM

@gs4menos Can you summarize them? I haven't been on officials to read them. Or maybe just link the thread so it's easy to locate.

Sabotage
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 9:23:55 AM

I don't know anything specific but by reading that it would seem people are having issues with Allereli.

Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 10:41:28 AM

I've been PMed about formatting concerns and naming conventions that I hadn't seen officially documented anywhere in the forefront before. Given that there was such a big change, and I was occasionally updating throughout, of course I don't refer to the latest stuff that's been pushed out! And some of the things I've been flagged for seems stylistically driven and writer subjective than functional. But, given the amount of work she does over there, they're small changes to make to work towards the more a consistent user experience. If it takes her longer to identify than me to do the change, it's no big deal.

Admining or Moding anything is a thankless job, while trying to keep things to match your potentially subjective vision. I mean, sure we have our Scribe of Elanthia titles and stuff from previous Wiki competitions and stuff... but, that doesn't really encompass the amount of work done. There are so many content articles out there from god knows who that require reading/indexing/potentially deletion/etc... Not to mention people making shit that they think is important but doesn't fit anything and shouldn't be there. It's a job even I wouldn't want to do. I think if I also joined the wiki moderators and became an active wiki mod, Simu would need to start paying me.

Estild
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 11:17:46 AM

@whirlin said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

I’ve been PMed about formatting concerns and naming conventions that I hadn’t seen officially documented anywhere in the forefront before. Given that there was such a big change, and I was occasionally updating throughout, of course I don’t refer to the latest stuff that’s been pushed out! And some of the things I’ve been flagged for seems stylistically driven and writer subjective than functional. But, given the amount of work she does over there, they’re small changes to make to work towards the more a consistent user experience. If it takes her longer to identify than me to do the change, it’s no big deal.

This. A consistent user experience goes a long way to make a better end product. I'm an exceedingly grateful for all the work the authors, editors, and moderators put into the wiki. I often use it myself to look up information.

archigeek
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 12:06:58 PM

My only complaint is that sometimes the meat and potatoes info on a subject is sometimes missing or given light treatment. It's ok if things are missing, so long as we aren't pretending that it's all there or that we know everything. I think notes on Wikipedia for example, that say things lime "citation needed" encourage peoe to participate, for example. The more people that we can encourage to be involved the better. Maybe we should think about how we're doing that? A class on protocol maybe wouldn't hurt either.

Evarin
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 12:12:13 PM

I've spoken with several who have said they wont try to update the wiki for fear of "messing it up" or variations on that theme.

I update here and there and typically it needs to be corrected. The burden needs to be shouldered by a few due to the high standards of the wiki now that it is an official source of information. Unless that changes, I don't see people jumping out of the woodwork to help out.

Mogonis
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 12:18:50 PM

I ninja-edit grammatical errors occasionally.

viekn
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 12:21:08 PM

Both of these suggestions could already be in existance, but I think two things need to be in place...

  1. A document outlining very specifically what formatting and other guidelines need to be followed.
  2. A way for some people to submit a change or addition they want made to the wiki without having to do it themselves. Whatever that way is, it should be very clearly communicated and made visible on the front page. For instance: "Want to contribute to the wiki but don't want to bother with editing something yourself? Please send your content or idea to our Wiki mod team by clicking this button!" Upon review and approval, they will incorporate your info into the relevant page."
Evarin
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 12:26:24 PM

Allereli and Nihrvana are quite active on slack chat and there is a section there for GS Wiki discussion: https://gemstoneiv.slack.com/messages/C2E0713FH/details/

Adding to their backlog won't result in any warm fuzzies, though.

Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 12:26:30 PM

@archigeek said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

My only complaint is that sometimes the meat and potatoes info on a subject is sometimes missing or given light treatment. It's ok if things are missing, so long as we aren't pretending that it's all there or that we know everything. I think notes on Wikipedia for example, that say things lime "citation needed" encourage peoe to participate, for example. The more people that we can encourage to be involved the better. Maybe we should think about how we're doing that? A class on protocol maybe wouldn't hurt either.

I absolutely don't disagree... but, given such a distributed user base, Allereli needs to act as the stick that keeps the people in line that don't have the time/energy/interest in participating in that class. I think that such a class would be in too much, preaching to the choir.

Flimbo
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 12:38:10 PM

My experience with the wiki was having written a single long article for it from scratch, and I have to say I would never touch the thing again. While I was in the process on the first day of writing the first paragraph with some placeholder text in there, I started getting messages from Allereli giving me crap. That didn't end until the article was finished almost a month later. I considered even just hosting the information elsewhere, but I eventually finished and resolved never contribute to the wiki again.

I do feel somewhat good that someone else has obviously risen complaints about the same thing. Maybe it'll get addressed at some point. I'd rather have a heated debate on the officials with Emeradan than have to write another wiki article right now.

ArchSenex
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 12:46:03 PM

I will say this, nobody should ever be threatened for changing something they shouldn't change, if a system exists to prevent it. If some content is special because it's official, it should be locked by default so only mods and GM's can change it.

allereli
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 12:53:53 PM

@flimbo said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

My experience with the wiki was having written a single long article for it from scratch, and I have to say I would never touch the thing again. While I was in the process on the first day of writing the first paragraph with some placeholder text in there, I started getting messages from Allereli giving me crap. That didn't end until the article was finished almost a month later. I considered even just hosting the information elsewhere, but I eventually finished and resolved never contribute to the wiki again.

I do feel somewhat good that someone else has obviously risen complaints about the same thing. Maybe it'll get addressed at some point. I'd rather have a heated debate on the officials with Emeradan than have to write another wiki article right now.

this is the "crap" I gave you:

Please do not use the Profession template as that adds the Profession category to the page, but you can take the code minus the category from the template. Thank you. VANKRASN39 (talk) 13:59, 8 May 2017 (CDT)

https://gswiki.play.net/Talk:Flimbo%27sMonkGuide

Many people leap to "I'm never going to edit" with any sort of moderation at all. I don't have the energy to try to convince to you do otherwise.

I have responded to each complaint on the officials describing exactly what happened. One of the people who posted, I have no clue what their complaint is, as they have zero editing history that would indicate any problem whatsoever.

If pointing out that using a specific template is problematic caused personal distress to you, I apologize, but guides need to be kept out of the profession category. If you are unsure of how to do something, ask, that's what the Talk/Discussion pages are for.

As for getting grief for the entire time you were writing (May 7-June 19), I sent you one email the day I wrote on the talk page to make sure you saw the message. I did not send you any further messages after that. You were given no grief whatsoever, and I do not appreciate you making that up.

Flimbo
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 12:58:38 PM

@allereli said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@flimbo said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

My experience with the wiki was having written a single long article for it from scratch, and I have to say I would never touch the thing again. While I was in the process on the first day of writing the first paragraph with some placeholder text in there, I started getting messages from Allereli giving me crap. That didn't end until the article was finished almost a month later. I considered even just hosting the information elsewhere, but I eventually finished and resolved never contribute to the wiki again.

I do feel somewhat good that someone else has obviously risen complaints about the same thing. Maybe it'll get addressed at some point. I'd rather have a heated debate on the officials with Emeradan than have to write another wiki article right now.

this is the "crap" I gave you:

Please do not use the Profession template as that adds the Profession category to the page, but you can take the code minus the category from the template. Thank you. VANKRASN39 (talk) 13:59, 8 May 2017 (CDT)

https://gswiki.play.net/Talk:Flimbo%27sMonkGuide

Many people leap to "I'm never going to edit" with any sort of moderation at all. I don't have the energy to try to convince to you do otherwise.

I have responded to each complaint on the officials describing exactly what happened. One of the people who posted, I have no clue what their complaint is, as they have zero editing history.

If pointing out that using a specific template is problematic caused personal distress to you, I apologize, but guides need to be kept out of the profession category. If you are unsure of how to do something, ask, that's what the Talk/Discussion pages are for.

As for getting grief for the entire time you were writing (May 7-June 19), I sent you one email the day I wrote on the talk page to make sure you saw the message. I did not send you any further messages after that. You were given no grief whatsoever, and I do not appreciate you making that up.

Yes, clearly with multiple reports of you harassing people, enough to warrant GM response to the issue, I must be making things up.

I'll tell you again what I told you in my last email: Leave. Me. Alone.

The wiki page I made is finished since June 19th. Leave me alone. Leave me the hell alone. The fact that you can email me at all bothers me. The fact that you did so repeatedly over the course of a month is something altogether different.

allereli
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 1:06:21 PM

@flimbo said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

The wiki page I made is finished since June 19th. Leave me alone. Leave me the hell alone. The fact that you can email me at all bothers me. The fact that you did so repeatedly over the course of a month is something altogether different.

I did not email you at all except for that one time. If you would like to forward me the other emails you claim are from me, I would be happy to look at them.

Again, our only communications were on May 8.

@flimbo said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

Yes, clearly with multiple reports of you harassing people, enough to warrant GM response to the issue, I must be making things up.

Did you read the GM response? I also pushed for a GM response (as well as GM participation in all aspects of the Wiki) as I had already addressed each and every complaint individually with specifics, and discussed each and every complaint with Wyrom and/or Kaikala.

When you forward me the supposedly harassing emails, please also CC @Wyrom and @Kaikala

viekn
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 1:38:32 PM

@flimbo said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@allereli said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@flimbo said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

My experience with the wiki was having written a single long article for it from scratch, and I have to say I would never touch the thing again. While I was in the process on the first day of writing the first paragraph with some placeholder text in there, I started getting messages from Allereli giving me crap. That didn't end until the article was finished almost a month later. I considered even just hosting the information elsewhere, but I eventually finished and resolved never contribute to the wiki again.

I do feel somewhat good that someone else has obviously risen complaints about the same thing. Maybe it'll get addressed at some point. I'd rather have a heated debate on the officials with Emeradan than have to write another wiki article right now.

this is the "crap" I gave you:

Please do not use the Profession template as that adds the Profession category to the page, but you can take the code minus the category from the template. Thank you. VANKRASN39 (talk) 13:59, 8 May 2017 (CDT)

https://gswiki.play.net/Talk:Flimbo%27sMonkGuide

Many people leap to "I'm never going to edit" with any sort of moderation at all. I don't have the energy to try to convince to you do otherwise.

I have responded to each complaint on the officials describing exactly what happened. One of the people who posted, I have no clue what their complaint is, as they have zero editing history.

If pointing out that using a specific template is problematic caused personal distress to you, I apologize, but guides need to be kept out of the profession category. If you are unsure of how to do something, ask, that's what the Talk/Discussion pages are for.

As for getting grief for the entire time you were writing (May 7-June 19), I sent you one email the day I wrote on the talk page to make sure you saw the message. I did not send you any further messages after that. You were given no grief whatsoever, and I do not appreciate you making that up.

"The fact that you did so repeatedly over the course of a month is something altogether different."

If you want people to take your complaint seriously, you're going to have to be more specific than that with regards to exactly how many and on what dates. Currently your response is very subjective.

Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 1:42:34 PM

I just wish when I wrote my guides, I could lock other people from editing them, but the locking is only for GMs :(

Or that the upload size was higher for attachments... I'd do more collaborative stuff on the training spreadsheet. But right now, I'll need to rewrite it from scratch to meet the size limitations.

Flimbo
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 1:43:32 PM

@viekn said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

If you want people to take your complaint seriously, you're going to have to be more specific than that with regards to exactly how many and on what dates.

I don't. I don't want to be involved in any way. I'm glad that the problem may be dealt with, as stated in my initial post, and that's where my interest starts and ends. I've made my wiki page, and now I'm done with the wiki forever. If it becomes less of a hostile environment for other people making wiki pages in the future, great. My own experience was hellish.

However, if you can think of a time when a "he said she said" produced anything but a flame war on a forum, you let me know and we can go ahead and hash it all out.

allereli
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 1:48:25 PM

@flimbo said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

I don't. I don't want to be involved in any way. I'm glad that the problem may be dealt with, as stated in my initial post, and that's where my interest starts and ends. I've made my wiki page, and now I'm done with the wiki forever. If it becomes less of a hostile environment for other people making wiki pages in the future, great. My own experience was hellish.

However, if you can think of a time when a "he said she said" produced anything but a flame war on a forum, you let me know and we can go ahead and hash it all out.

As I stand by my statement as truth, and I have asked for your evidence, I welcome your further input. I am well known for being direct and truthful. I have not flamed you in the least, nor have I, or any other moderator, or any GM, done anything to your guide.

https://gswiki.play.net/index.php?title=Flimbo%27sMonkGuide&action=history

If you don't want to be involved in it in any way, don't make baseless accusations.

Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 1:51:32 PM

@allereli said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@flimbo said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

I don't. I don't want to be involved in any way. I'm glad that the problem may be dealt with, as stated in my initial post, and that's where my interest starts and ends. I've made my wiki page, and now I'm done with the wiki forever. If it becomes less of a hostile environment for other people making wiki pages in the future, great. My own experience was hellish.

However, if you can think of a time when a "he said she said" produced anything but a flame war on a forum, you let me know and we can go ahead and hash it all out.

As I stand by my statement as truth, and I have asked for your evidence, I welcome your further input. I am well known for being direct and truthful. I have not flamed you in the least, nor have I, or any other moderator, or any GM, done anything to your guide.

https://gswiki.play.net/index.php?title=Flimbo%27sMonkGuide&action=history

If you don't want to be involved in it in any way, don't make baseless accusations.

My guides have been edited more by others :(

0zymandius
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 1:54:16 PM

My $0.02, as a relatively new contributor to the Wiki... it's gotta be a nightmare to mod. Seriously. You've got any number of people trying to upload things, and you're tasked with making them all appear relatively similar. Add to that the fact that the formatting is NOT intuitive, and a lot of things are linked behind the scenes, and the mods have my utmost respect.

To date, I've posted 5 Interview Sessions, and had no issues (unless Luxelle is catching heat for something and not forwarding it to me). I did have to get an explanation of the process, and some guidance when I did my first one, and I do have to format them all before posting (using the most nonsensical, archaic gibberish imaginable), but it's a working process, and they come out looking good, and fitting in with the rest of the Wiki. I have no complaints.

Flimbo
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 2:03:09 PM

@allereli said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@flimbo said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

I don't. I don't want to be involved in any way. I'm glad that the problem may be dealt with, as stated in my initial post, and that's where my interest starts and ends. I've made my wiki page, and now I'm done with the wiki forever. If it becomes less of a hostile environment for other people making wiki pages in the future, great. My own experience was hellish.

However, if you can think of a time when a "he said she said" produced anything but a flame war on a forum, you let me know and we can go ahead and hash it all out.

As I stand by my statement as truth, and I have asked for your evidence, I welcome your further input. I am well known for being direct and truthful. I have not flamed you in the least, nor have I, or any other moderator, or any GM, done anything to your guide.

https://gswiki.play.net/index.php?title=Flimbo%27sMonkGuide&action=history

If you don't want to be involved in it in any way, don't make baseless accusations.

I'll tell you what. I'll make my official complaint, since you so desperately want it. And guess what? It's not going to go to you. You have absolutely zero authority over me or anyone. This forum is not a place for a complaint to be registered. I'm not going to register my complaint about you with you. I wasn't going to register it at all until you badgered it out of me.

I'll register my complaint via email to Simutronics and I'll forward them your 15-20 emails filled with bullshit, as is the proper channel to do so. What the hell is wrong with you? Do you have any capability of recognizing social cues at all? Do you even know you're doing it? Do you realize that the above quoted response you responded to as if I was talking to you was a response to Viekyn, as it was quoted in my post?

Jesus lady. This is what you do. This is why people have complained. And you still seem to have no idea what any of it's about.

Rohese
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 2:03:15 PM

My experience echoes that of @0zymandius in that I have made a couple of contributions to the Wiki with no issues whatsoever. One of my articles was reformatted slightly but only because I was unaware of the template so I was grateful for the steer and have followed it ever since.

I have no complaints and wish to add that I have the greatest respect for @allereli and the wiki work she does.

Roblar
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 2:05:49 PM

I also had no issues, and was grateful for the help as I had never edited or contributed to a wiki page before.

allereli
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 2:07:10 PM

@whirlin said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

My guides have been edited more by others :(

Yes, guides will be subject to edits from anybody when they are not kept up-to-date or contain incorrect factual information (not saying yours do). Basic fixes like spelling and formatting/lack of formatting will also be made. If you have a problem with any specific edit, please feel free to bring it up to any moderator or Kaikala's or Wyrom's attention.

allereli
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 2:09:38 PM

@flimbo said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

I'll tell you what. I'll make my official complaint, since you so desperately want it. And guess what? It's not going to go to you. You have absolutely zero authority over me or anyone. This forum is not a place for a complaint to be registered. I'm not going to register my complaint about you with you. I wasn't going to register it at all until you badgered it out of me.

I'll register my complaint via email to Simutronics and I'll forward them your 15-20 emails filled with bullshit, as is the proper channel to do so. What the hell is wrong with you? Do you have any capability of recognizing social cues at all? Do you even know you're doing it? Do you realize that the above quoted response you responded to as if I was talking to you was a response to Viekyn, as it was quoted in my post?

Jesus lady. This is what you do. This is why people have complained. And you still seem to have no idea what any of it's about.

Thank you. The Simutronics office staff is well aware of my email addresses and I'm sure will resolve the issue. I fully trust them to take the appropriate action.

I am fully willing to cooperate in whatever way if further information is needed, including providing a list of devices I own, and allowing Google and Yahoo to release information to Simutronics of my usage habits, as I've used both email services to do business with them. I only use one email address for the wiki and that same email address for my accounts, as I stopped using one for each account last month. I do not hide or change my IP addresses in any way, as the admins of this board can attest to.

SaltySenorita
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 5:53:18 PM

I've edited a few wiki articles here and there because misspellings make me itchy and have made a few tiny content additions to existing pages. In the beginning I didn't entirely grasp the "official" aspect of it, probably butchered some formatting, and maybe stepped on some contributor toes. Two or possibly three times I've been contacted by Allereli about formatting or other minor concerns. She was absolutely professional. I'm certain my clumsy initial forays into editing are probably multiplied a hundred-fold with others who attempt to help with it, and I know for me that would get old fast.

She spends a lot of time, y'all. A lot. Have you ever edited one of the tables? Even with someone else's foundation laid it's time consuming and thankless. If she's not warm and cuddly enough for some people when she corrects them, I think that's more their problem than hers. A lot of the complaints I've seen on the officials appear (from the outside looking in) largely ego-driven. Some people are taking stuff way too personally.

@Flimbo: Entirely separate from that and not meaning to imply you are one of those at all... I know you're feeling badgered at the moment, but I would not mind seeing a log of the all of the contact you had over your wiki issue pasted to this thread. I don't think I'm alone in that curiosity and I am open to reevaluating my take on this if it genuinely is excessive. I haven't seen anyone post specifics on a situation with the wiki moderation yet and it could be very enlightening.

Soulance
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 6:27:34 PM

I tried helping add to and edit a few articles myself. I never felt attacked or the like. I was always contacted in a helpful, appreciative manner. I can understand keeping format similar as it really helps to more easily link things together. At first, I didn't see much reasoning, but the more I looked to help the more it was understood that working with a consistent scheme is good!

archigeek
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 6:35:00 PM

@whirlin said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@archigeek said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

My only complaint is that sometimes the meat and potatoes info on a subject is sometimes missing or given light treatment. It's ok if things are missing, so long as we aren't pretending that it's all there or that we know everything. I think notes on Wikipedia for example, that say things lime "citation needed" encourage peoe to participate, for example. The more people that we can encourage to be involved the better. Maybe we should think about how we're doing that? A class on protocol maybe wouldn't hurt either.

I absolutely don't disagree... but, given such a distributed user base, Allereli needs to act as the stick that keeps the people in line that don't have the time/energy/interest in participating in that class. I think that such a class would be in too much, preaching to the choir.

I think there are too many people who are intimidated by the process, or who's first interaction with someone who has a lot of passion for it is when they've done and edit and the formatting or something gets changed by someone else afterwards. A good way to talk to people about contributing in an encouraging fashion would not be preaching to the choir at all, unless the volumes of knowledgeable players who aren't currently participating is the choir.

Sabotage
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 8:21:36 PM

I've tried making a wiki article. It was for Reim I believe, when it first came out. I'd never made a wiki article before and there was very limited information at that time. It was meant to be a place holder that still had information people could get. I was asked to use a saved post template, which I refused. The page is mostly how I first set it up and there was no need to use that template for what I wanted to accomplish.

Allereli and myself got into it on the PC over this and I have very rarely touched the wiki again. I have no desire to learn all there is about wiki articles and if that is required then I'll just not contribute.

I'm not complaining about Allereli, she does a lot of work on the wiki and she does it well. She is blunt and it can come off the wrong way. I can see how it is intimidating to new contributors.

Wyrom
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 8:45:43 PM

The assistance that the community receives from all the work done on the wiki is pretty visible. While some people may have had some issues, I think the majority of players are benefiting. Wiki has a lot of traffic, and it gets extremely heavy during event times.

@allereli reaches out to even staff about formatting and such. Not everyone knows the ins and outs, but it's helpful that she's keeping up with the style guides for us. She's definitely more of a teach a person to fish kind of person.

Parkbandit
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 8:47:45 PM

Great job @allereli! You deserve these accolades! Without your hard work and dedication, GS WIKI would be nothing!

Congratulations!

Wyrom
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 8:49:34 PM

Also, the purpose of my post on the officials wasn't from any complaint received. @allereli actually reached out to me about the need for clarifying. I don't think anyone actually knew that she was our lead moderator. I've never seen an instance where she was not professional when asking someone to update formatting or to not edit a page due to it being official. I have seen people berate her though, which really seems uncalled for.

allereli
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 8:50:48 PM

@sabotage said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

I've tried making a wiki article. It was for Reim I believe, when it first came out. I'd never made a wiki article before and there was very limited information at that time. It was meant to be a place holder that still had information people could get. I was asked to use a saved post template, which I refused. The page is mostly how I first set it up and there was no need to use that template for what I wanted to accomplish.

Allereli and myself got into it on the PC over this and I have very rarely touched the wiki again. I have no desire to learn all there is about wiki articles and if that is required then I'll just not contribute.

I'm not complaining about Allereli, she does a lot of work on the wiki and she does it well. She is blunt and it can come off the wrong way. I can see how it is intimidating to new contributors.

Thank you for the compliment. I don't wish to further argue, I have enjoyed the times we have met in person, and you should know based on that that I have absolutely no ill will or hard feelings towards you. But since I am addressing all complaints/situations shared, I will address this as well:

https://gswiki.play.net/SettlementofReim/saved_posts

We almost always have a saved post page for major releases. If we don't it's because someone writes a fully formatted and organized article first. The saved posts as a whole are highly organized, and as further information is released for each subject, we go back to them to write the actual article, which I believe was your goal. You were pasting the text anyway, so I requested you help out in the normal fashion of what we do with that text.

@sabotage said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

I have no desire to learn all there is about wiki articles and if that is required then I’ll just not contribute.

There's really nothing I can say to fully respond to this statement. I have been corrected many times and I welcome the corrections. If you're going to flat out refuse to follow any guidelines (published or implied), then (sadly) yes, I would rather have you contribute somewhere else. Starting to learn edit on an official article for which the game makes actual money on is not the best idea.

Parkbandit
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 8:52:44 PM

@wyrom said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

Also, the purpose of my post on the officials wasn't from any complaint received. @allereli actually reached out to me about the need for clarifying. I don't think anyone actually knew that she was our lead moderator. I've never seen an instance where she was not professional when asking someone to update formatting or to not edit a page due to it being official. I have seen people berate her though, which really seems uncalled for.

Well said Wyrom!

Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 9:23:35 PM

All of the drama actually renewed my efforts to work on the wiki... When I have free time... .. ... .... I never have free time :(

archigeek
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 9:40:12 PM

I wrote most of what you find on the wiki on the subject of ethereal strings. I had no idea how to write a wiki article, but did know the subject matter pretty well. I probably did it all wrong, but it worked out ok. To Me, the biggest challenge was that I I couldn't figure out a way to effectively preview my work before releasing it. This meant many edits after first release, and led someone to mistakenly conclude I was done. It was quickly cleared up, but it would have been easier if I'd had a clue before I started. Anything that encourages knowledgeable people to contribute is a good thing.

Sabotage
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 9:42:54 PM

@allereli I think what I was getting at is that I was asked to remove that page or turn it into a saved post page, but the article I made is largely the exact same as when I made it. A few bells and whistles were added and information updated as it came in. I only made it because Reim had been out for 2-3 weeks and there was literally nothing about it on the wiki. Retser's post, that I did basically cut and paste, was already a wiki article by itself. Just needed to be parsed into sections, which is largely what I did.

Are you saying you would have rather just done the whole thing yourself rather than just making small edits to what I put out there?

For not going off a template and just copying formatting from other articles I think it came out pretty good.

allereli
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 9:51:37 PM

@sabotage said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@allereli I think what I was getting at is that I was asked to remove that page or turn it into a saved post page, but the article I made is largely the exact same as when I made it. A few bells and whistles were added and information updated as it came in. I only made it because Reim had been out for 2-3 weeks and there was literally nothing about it on the wiki. Retser's post, that I did basically cut and paste, was already a wiki article by itself. Just needed to be parsed into sections, which is largely what I did.

Are you saying you would have rather just done the whole thing yourself rather than just making small edits to what I put out there?

Like I said, I didn't want to argue about it again, so I'll let you have the last word and allow the histories of both pages speak for themselves.

Sabotage
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 10:06:54 PM

@allereli I wasn't looking to argue I genuinely was seeking an answer to my question. The rest was just context.

Would you rather someone publish an article with some problems that require fixing or just create the page from scratch yourself?

allereli
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 11:53:22 PM

@sabotage said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

Would you rather someone publish an article with some problems that require fixing or just create the page from scratch yourself?

Every situation and person is different, and types of pages are different and receive different levels of moderation, so I like to use specific examples:

  1. When someone starts a new page for every saved post for a storyline. Sometimes they don't even indicate what storyline it is for. I've really worked hard to streamline that type of information and you can see about a half dozen perfectly acceptable ways to do it depending on how the information is posted and how much people participate. Yet people don't bother looking at the end product. I have spent days sorting storyline posts out.

  2. The articles we're having the most issues with are the existing articles, not new ones. New articles rarely have problems that reach the scope of the OP complaints about the WPS table lockdown. In your case it looked like you were going to just paste the saved posts and leave them, as many have done, so I asked you to add the template because I'd have to do that anyway, and you got upset and clarified your intentions, and you continued and everything was peachy keen. When people just abandon the text, I'd rather just do it myself. There are tools such as the work-in-progress template and sandboxes (I know about creation issues, move your page into a user page after page creation and it's fine) that people should be using more, as well as the Village Pump, Request page and Talk pages.

  3. Generally, if you're going to refuse to read the Style Guide, refuse to acknowledge Policy, or become belligerent when presented with facts or asked to hold off while an official response is obtained, I'd rather do it myself.

I don't do it all myself btw, there is a greater variety of people editing now than ever before, certainly from earlier this year. The current work being done is absolutely a collaboration, and with me it has always been a collaboration, but there just weren't that many people willing to put in the effort to address the problems of the site as a whole when it was KP, and still very few now. It's a lot of work, but the results are paying off.

Here are some examples of what I consider productive collaboration: https://gswiki.play.net/Talk:Web(118) https://gswiki.play.net/Gswiki:Requests#AddingpricesandINSPECTinfotoNPCShopinventory https://gswiki.play.net/Listofcreaturesthatcancauseitemloss https://gswiki.play.net/ParasiticWeapon https://gswiki.play.net/MoonShardpendant https://gswiki.play.net/Templatetalk:Spell#HealingSpells https://gswiki.play.net/Help:Festshopscript https://gswiki.play.net/Category:AutomatedUnlocking_Certificates

Please let me know if you wish specifics on why in any of the examples as I know not everyone will know what to look for (see edit histories, talk pages to start; with the Slack and email being used regularly, histories and talk will not always have the full details).

HJFudge
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 12:29:42 AM

As someone who has no knowledge of..Wiki-ing, is there a source we could use to gain insight into how youd like things done, or some kind of help page or 'beginner's guide'? I'd like to put up character background stuff in the appropriate sections if possible, and some storyline stuff Platwise. But I...well, Ive no idea how :)

Seeing as there are issues with this, perhaps there could be a guide made? Or if there is one, it could be pointed out?

Sabotage
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 12:32:45 AM

@hjfudge https://gswiki.play.net/Help:Style

HJFudge
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 12:36:00 AM

Coolio, thanks!

Sabotage
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 12:38:08 AM

@allereli Fair enough.

Sabotage
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 12:40:58 AM

@hjfudge Oh and you can search for "template" on the wiki and get help for specific categories, depending on what you are looking to add.

Though I found it easier to just find a similar item on the wiki and copy from there. A lot less searching.

Evarin
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 1:32:46 AM

I think a big issue with this situation is the cognitive dissonance that takes place when people take the time to try to contribute to the body of knowledge of the community to often be met with criticism of their offerings. While this criticism is valid, it is given in a manner that is abrupt and perhaps lacking tact. Why this is the preferred method of those giving the corrections, I don't know. A little bit of consideration for those attempting to help would go a long ways, but at this point it is clear it will not be forthcoming.

Getting over that fact is the stumbling block for many, including myself. I've been corrected multiple times, and very likely will be corrected many times more in the future. While I wish the dialogue was less confrontational, it is what it is. I'd like to see improvement on this front, but i'm pretty sure that the multiple threads on this topic have shown that it is not going to happen. I encourage everyone else to persevere as well, but I can understand the viewpoints of those who believe the effort isn't worth the potential hassle.

I'm not sure what the solution is to this problem, but going forward, I hope something can be learned from all of these posts other than further discouragement for novice editors to try to give back to the community. At this point it doesn't look like it, and that's a shame.

allereli
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 1:48:32 AM

@hjfudge said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

As someone who has no knowledge of..Wiki-ing, is there a source we could use to gain insight into how youd like things done, or some kind of help page or 'beginner's guide'? I'd like to put up character background stuff in the appropriate sections if possible, and some storyline stuff Platwise. But I...well, Ive no idea how :)

Seeing as there are issues with this, perhaps there could be a guide made? Or if there is one, it could be pointed out?

The first page anyone should read is: https://gswiki.play.net/Help:Contents

https://gswiki.play.net/Template:Characterprofile a good example: https://gswiki.play.net/Rohese_Bayvel-Timsh%27l

For past storylines I strongly recommend getting all the text you want into a Word or Google Doc file. When the content is ready, we'll decide together the best format for it. You might find that as you put the content together that it dictates the format, or you might find that you start one way, then completely move everything around. The less code there is before the text is where you want it, the easier it is to work with.

For ongoing storylines you can see what GM Kenstrom is doing here: https://gswiki.play.net/KeepingupwiththeKestrels

This was also done as an ongoing, but the story was much more focused in purpose, and a lot of organizational information was known beforehand, like how many days it would last, the major player characters involved, and the scope: https://gswiki.play.net/PalestraTrials5116

You have people with more than one article of experience willing to answer your questions. Please take advantage of that via the Village Pump and the Request pages or email.

https://gswiki.play.net/Category:Help

These are all of the help pages that have been approved since the transfer to GSWiki. Some templates also have detailed help. Writing full instruction pages is extremely time consuming, and other things to do have to be ignored while they are written.

allereli
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 2:10:10 AM

@evarin said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

I think a big issue with this situation is the cognitive dissonance that takes place when people take the time to try to contribute to the body of knowledge of the community to often be met with criticism of their offerings. While this criticism is valid, it is given in a manner that is abrupt and perhaps lacking tact. Why this is the preferred method of those giving the corrections, I don't know. A little bit of consideration for those attempting to help would go a long ways, but at this point it is clear it will not be forthcoming.

Getting over that fact is the stumbling block for many, including myself. I've been corrected multiple times, and very likely will be corrected many times more in the future. While I wish the dialogue was less confrontational, it is what it is. I'd like to see improvement on this front, but i'm pretty sure that the multiple threads on this topic have shown that it is not going to happen. I encourage everyone else to persevere as well, but I can understand the viewpoints of those who believe the effort isn't worth the potential hassle.

I'm not sure what the solution is to this problem, but going forward, I hope something can be learned from all of these posts other than further discouragement for novice editors to try to give back to the community. At this point it doesn't look like it, and that's a shame.

where is this even coming from? I have spent a considerable amount of time talking to you since I have joined Slack and having what I thought were friendly conversations.

Evarin
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 2:23:52 AM

A, I have spoken with you in the past quite clearly stating that I didn't understand why you were engaging me in what I perceived was a hostile tone. I've come to learn it's just your way of speaking. Can you not see that I am not alone in holding the opinion that you can come off as terse and at times rude?

This isn't an insult or a personal attack. I think you're an awesome asset to the community, but you definitely have a deficiency in interpersonal communications. There's a learning curve to holding a discussion with you where you need to plow through the distinct impression that you're interacting with someone who just doesn't like you.

Lord knows I'm a pain in the ass to deal with and I appreciate your help when you offer it. That being said, I think there would be a genuine positive response if you worked to speak with people in a friendlier mannner. We're all trying to make the game better where we can. It's hard to see that sometimes, but I truly believe that to be true.

allereli
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 3:05:04 AM

@evarin said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

A, I have spoken with you in the past quite clearly stating that I didn't understand why you were engaging me in what I perceived was a hostile tone. I've come to learn it's just your way of speaking. Can you not see that I am not alone in holding the opinion that you can come off as terse and at times rude?

This isn't an insult or a personal attack. I think you're an awesome asset to the community, but you definitely have a deficiency in interpersonal communications. There's a learning curve to holding a discussion with you where you just need to plow through the distinct impression where you're interacting with someone who just doesn't like you.

Lord knows I'm a pain in the ass to deal with and I appreciate your help when you offer it. That being said, I think there would be a genuine positive response if you worked to speak with people in a friendlier mannner. We're all trying to make the game better where we can. It's hard to see that sometimes, but I truly believe that to be true.

@Evarin Yes, we have spoken, and at the end of the conversation you clearly indicated you understood the reasons for my directness (mainly time). Since then we have had numerous interactions on Slack that I would characterize as far less than hostile. We have conversations going back to 2008 that are very friendly, I don't know why you ever thought I was taking any personal shots at you to begin with, given our decade long history.

You got extremely upset when I pointed out that you didn't play anymore and were out of touch with the current state of sorcery when you made a statement about lore training. I absolutely apologize if that made you think I didn't like you or respect you. Given our decade long history and long discussions of topics such as scroll infusion, I thought I could give that feedback. You still seem to be upset about it today. But I have no regrets if my comment helped lead to your return. But that discussion had nothing to do with the Wiki, did not take place on a Wiki page, or have anything to do with any Wiki edits.

The discussion here and the Officials has been far from unanimous. I cannot hold everyone's hand, I teach people to fish, as Wyrom stated.

If you require further assistance, you simply don't indicate it when you do. Last week when you needed assistance you were so impatient that you deleted your Slack message by the time I returned to the office from lunch. You don't use the Talk pages, you don't use the Village Pump.

Evarin
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 3:14:57 AM

I'm not buying that there's no time to be polite when speaking to people. It doesn't take time to treat everyone with the respect they deserve. I don't understand this point of view, but if you'd care to explain it I'm certainly willing to listen.

I hope we can continue to be civil with each other, and I foresee interacting often in the future. I imagine many of those interactions will not be perfectly formatted to the standards that are currently being held for the wiki. All I ask for is patience and common decency. if you don't feel you have time to correspond with me with a semblance of said decency, then please wait until such time is available.

allereli
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 3:24:57 AM

@evarin said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

I'm not buying that there's no time to be polite when speaking to people. It doesn't take time to treat everyone with the respect they deserve. I don't understand this point of view, but if you'd care to explain it I'm certainly willing to listen.

I hope we can continue to be civil with each other, and I foresee interacting often in the future. I imagine many of those interactions will not be perfectly formatted to the standards that are currently being held for the wiki. All I ask for is patience and common decency. if you don't feel you have time to correspond with me with a semblance of said decency, then please wait until such time is available.

As I stated, any cross words we had a discussion about had nothing to do with the Wiki in general, or any specific edit, and did not take place on any Wiki page. Our Slack message history has nothing but me trying to be helpful to you.

On July 13 we had a conversation about CoL pages. On August 19th we had a conversation about my Duskruin Arena strategy. In what way were these conversations not decent or not welcoming to you?

HJFudge
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 3:42:48 AM

I am unsure what is going on but...munches on popcorn

Alastir
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 5:17:24 AM

Thank you @allereli for all that you do. The gswiki is pretty much the only good resource for information and I appreciate all the effort you put into it.

Something that I think @Flimbo missed, is that it's not "his" anything. You're contributing to something that belongs to everyone. Nobody "owns" any part of the gswiki even if you created it.

Sabotage
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 6:24:48 AM

Actually when it comes to looking up scripts and items the best resource i've found is google. This little known trick really can help you from searching thru multiple search results. And it brings you to the specific page it is mentioned on, so its 100x better than PC's search function.

search for:

site:forum.gsplayers.com

Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 8:36:41 AM

@evarin said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

A, I have spoken with you in the past quite clearly stating that I didn't understand why you were engaging me in what I perceived was a hostile tone. I've come to learn it's just your way of speaking. Can you not see that I am not alone in holding the opinion that you can come off as terse and at times rude?

This isn't an insult or a personal attack. I think you're an awesome asset to the community, but you definitely have a deficiency in interpersonal communications. There's a learning curve to holding a discussion with you where you need to plow through the distinct impression that you're interacting with someone who just doesn't like you.

Lord knows I'm a pain in the ass to deal with and I appreciate your help when you offer it. That being said, I think there would be a genuine positive response if you worked to speak with people in a friendlier mannner. We're all trying to make the game better where we can. It's hard to see that sometimes, but I truly believe that to be true.

Hey, you echo every comment made by every HoA member ever regarding how I handle them. But fortunately I hire other leaders to translate from Whirlin to normal.

This hit a little close to home!

Evarin
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 8:53:45 AM

@allereli said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@evarin said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

I'm not buying that there's no time to be polite when speaking to people. It doesn't take time to treat everyone with the respect they deserve. I don't understand this point of view, but if you'd care to explain it I'm certainly willing to listen.

I hope we can continue to be civil with each other, and I foresee interacting often in the future. I imagine many of those interactions will not be perfectly formatted to the standards that are currently being held for the wiki. All I ask for is patience and common decency. if you don't feel you have time to correspond with me with a semblance of said decency, then please wait until such time is available.

As I stated, any cross words we had a discussion about had nothing to do with the Wiki in general, or any specific edit, and did not take place on any Wiki page. Our Slack message history has nothing but me trying to be helpful to you.

On July 13 we had a conversation about CoL pages. On August 19th we had a conversation about my Duskruin Arena strategy. In what way were these conversations not decent or not welcoming to you?

I could go through and pick out the sentence structure and word choices used, but i'm not a linguist and I doubt the effort would be fruitful. If our past conversations, after having kept a record and reviewing them hasn't illuminated the issue, along with my several posts here and the sentiments expressed by several others across the 3 separate message boards haven't been able to make this point clear, I doubt anything I can say or do will. At this point, any further attempts to resolve the issue in the frame of our specific conversations will come off as a personal attack, which is not my intention nor is at all productive.

I entered this discussion because there was a theme being repeated. It wasn't to pile on, but to point out where the issue lies. Person A had an interaction with you which resulted in a negative outcome sufficient enough to be remembered, and at some point be brought up to you or others. Person B has a similar experience with a variation on that theme, and so on and so on. You then dissect each conversation, looking for the specific instances of you offering slight. Typically, none is found because you're not going to swear at or outright belittle anyone. Still, there's a common denominator running throughout these interactions where the subtext of the discussion is a perception of conflict. If this perception was only held by one, or a few individuals, it could be dismissed. Instead, the problem is significant enough that it has reared its head many times and you've had to defend yourself now, and I am sure multiple times in the past.

You speak of not having enough time to engage with people in a way which would alleviate this perception of friction. This leads me to believe that you have some understanding of what could be done to address the problem, but you chose not to do so. If that's the case, I would ask how much time have you spent in this most recent instance attempting to deal with this issue, coupled with the direct conversations, letters to staff, etc. I would suggest instead that the time be taken to insure interactions with others, especially those centering around correcting what you would believe is a mistake or shortcoming, does not result in a perpetuation of a negatively perceived or confrontational interaction. It may not seem like a worthwhile use of your time, but as you can observe, it may end up saving you a great deal further down the line.

allereli
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 8:54:07 AM

@alastir said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

Something that I think @Flimbo missed, is that it's not "his" anything. You're contributing to something that belongs to everyone. Nobody "owns" any part of the gswiki even if you created it.

this is incorrect. Simutronics owns the wiki and will adjust content as it wishes. This is stated in Policy.

allereli
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 8:57:56 AM

@evarin said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

You speak of not having enough time to engage with people in a way which would alleviate this perception of friction. This leads me to believe that you have some understanding of what could be done to address the problem, but you chose not to do so. If that’s the case, I would ask how much time have you spent in this most recent instance attempting to deal with this issue, coupled with the direct conversations, letters to staff, etc. I would suggest instead that the time be taken to insure interactions with others, especially those centering around correcting what you would believe is a mistake or shortcoming, does not result in a perpetuation of a negatively perceived or confrontational interaction. It may not seem like a worthwhile use of your time, but as you can observe, it may end up saving you a great deal further down the line.

and person C, D, E, and F find me perfectly professional when it comes to Wiki management. I have not been perfect in Wiki management, and have definitely sent apologies for when I overstepped or did something too soon. But you specifically are taking conversations outside of that and applying it to how I deal with the Wiki, and that has nothing to do with anything, I am still also a customer of Simutronics, and am in my position because no one else knows enough about the site to do it.

Evarin
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 9:00:58 AM

@allereli said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@evarin said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

You speak of not having enough time to engage with people in a way which would alleviate this perception of friction. This leads me to believe that you have some understanding of what could be done to address the problem, but you chose not to do so. If that’s the case, I would ask how much time have you spent in this most recent instance attempting to deal with this issue, coupled with the direct conversations, letters to staff, etc. I would suggest instead that the time be taken to insure interactions with others, especially those centering around correcting what you would believe is a mistake or shortcoming, does not result in a perpetuation of a negatively perceived or confrontational interaction. It may not seem like a worthwhile use of your time, but as you can observe, it may end up saving you a great deal further down the line.

and person C, D, E, and F find me perfectly professional when it comes to Wiki management. I have not been perfect in Wiki management, and have definitely sent apologies for when I overstepped or did something too soon. But you specifically are taking conversations outside of that and applying it to how I deal with the Wiki, and that has nothing to do with anything, I am still also a customer of Simutronics, and am in my position because no one else knows enough about the site to do it.

Very well. I've tried my best to state what the problem is but it's clear it's just not going to be resolved. At this point, there's nothing more that can be said on my part.

idlewanderlust
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 2:04:31 PM

Withdrawn.

Wyrom
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 2:40:14 PM

@idlewanderlust said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

It's odd the attitudes reflected in this thread are Simu-endorsed.

How do you mean? Where are they endorsed?

idlewanderlust
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 2:54:11 PM

MIsread an older post. Mea culpa.

Kithus
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 4:07:40 PM

@allereli said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

Generally, if you’re going to refuse to read the Style Guide, refuse to acknowledge Policy, or become belligerent when presented with facts or asked to hold off while an official response is obtained, I’d rather do it myself.

I've read the style guide and follow it. You've still made major changes and reversions to pages I've put hours of work into because it wasn't done "your" way. I've acknowledged available, written policy. What I don't acknowledge is new rules you make up on the fly to justify your current argument. I'm happy to go about my business and consistently add information to the wiki as one of it's major contributors. I become belligerent when you make unreasonable edits and reversions because you aren't 100% comfortable with information. I'd rather you make the edits yourself. Unfortunately a merchant list that doesn't go up until after the event is over doesn't help anyone. A mechanics update that affects a service that is currently available but going away in a few days needs a NOW update, not an Allereli grappling with learning mechanics and needing multiple clarifications update.

Once again you're a terrible lead mod and, as has already been said, i want nothing more than for you to leave me, and my work, the hell alone.

ondreian
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 4:47:56 PM

Alright, I get that there are a lot of strong feelings with regards to ownership of work.

It is incredibly hard to be an effective reviewer/style enforcer/etc, moreso when the work is more or less a labor of love, and this is why lots of organizations move this kind of work to some sort of automated system, because it takes the emotion out of it.

I'm very glad for all of the effort @allereli puts into this and her efficacy, because fighting contributor entropy in community collaborations is one of the most important things for long-term viability of a resource

The wiki would be much less usable if every author used a completely different style.

While we are at it, we would also be keeping in mind you are not your work, and your work is not just you, especially when it is created for a community.

Please be respectful with your criticisms she is doing all of us a great service.

Wyrom
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 7:07:19 PM

@kithus said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@allereli said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

Generally, if you’re going to refuse to read the Style Guide, refuse to acknowledge Policy, or become belligerent when presented with facts or asked to hold off while an official response is obtained, I’d rather do it myself.

I've read the style guide and follow it. You've still made major changes and reversions to pages I've put hours of work into because it wasn't done "your" way. I've acknowledged available, written policy. What I don't acknowledge is new rules you make up on the fly to justify your current argument. I'm happy to go about my business and consistently add information to the wiki as one of it's major contributors. I become belligerent when you make unreasonable edits and reversions because you aren't 100% comfortable with information. I'd rather you make the edits yourself. Unfortunately a merchant list that doesn't go up until after the event is over doesn't help anyone. A mechanics update that affects a service that is currently available but going away in a few days needs a NOW update, not an Allereli grappling with learning mechanics and needing multiple clarifications update.

Once again you're a terrible lead mod and, as has already been said, i want nothing more than for you to leave me, and my work, the hell alone.

The information on the padding numbers is being worked on by staff so that it is clear. The issue stemmed when you revised the template that had the old numbers on it. The old numbers are still accurate numbers in the new system. The difference is the service numbers, which is what @allereli and ZHOUY1 have been discussing on https://gswiki.play.net/Talk:Padding. Pages edited by staff are considered official unless otherwise said so. In this case, I was the one who edited the page.

@allereli is also not a CS rep/GameHost. Her responding to players is actually going above and beyond. All we ask of the mods is to clean things up, make sure duplicate information isn't happening, and try to stick to a single style guide. I realize your issues are more personal, but you also have to consider how you approached it. @Kaikala and I will have a talk soon to make a proper protocol going forward.

Kithus
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 10:06:24 PM

@wyrom said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

The information on the padding numbers is being worked on by staff so that it is clear. The issue stemmed when you revised the template that had the old numbers on it. The old numbers are still accurate numbers in the new system. The difference is the service numbers, which is what @allereli and ZHOUY1 have been discussing on https://gswiki.play.net/Talk:Padding. Pages edited by staff are considered official unless otherwise said so. In this case, I was the one who edited the page.

@allereli is also not a CS rep/GameHost. Her responding to players is actually going above and beyond. All we ask of the mods is to clean things up, make sure duplicate information isn't happening, and try to stick to a single style guide. I realize your issues are more personal, but you also have to consider how you approached it. @Kaikala and I will have a talk soon to make a proper protocol going forward.

I did not remove the old numbers. I simply added the service numbers along side of them so they would be accessible. There is nothing in the wiki policy stating that players cannot edit pages created by staff. If that is the policy then they should all be locked to prevent non-mods from touching them. As for the rest of it, I don't think we need to have another discussion about how I feel about @allereli and her moderation practices. I'm still waiting for an answer as to what the proper method is to challenge an edit because thus far I feel completely powerless the moment she starts bullying me on the wiki.

Rozy
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 11:46:26 AM

@wyrom There are two main groups of thought regarding this topic: One that maintains that the information should follow guidelines as to how it's entered so that it can be understood by all, and the other that believes any information is better than none.

Neither of them are incorrect, IMO, but the original Krakiipedia was about having a repository for ALL the information, whether it was pretty or easily understood was less of a priority.

In such an environment as a crowdsourced repository of information, when people feel that their efforts are unwelcome we lose that raw resource that could be educated into something more refined, and a general feeling of discontent begins to simmer.

As a possible solution, I suggest that we utilize a "drafting" tag. This would denote to the readers that it's still being worked on to make it fit to the standards of the wiki, would allow for the more capable editors an easy list of things that could use their expertise, and open communication between the creator and editors for education of wiki standards - given the current climate, an "I'm interested in making this better" or "word vomit, do with this what you will" sub-tag might also be of use.

allereli
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 11:48:48 AM

@rozy said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

As a possible solution, I suggest that we utilize a "drafting" tag. This would denote to the readers that it's still being worked on to make it fit to the standards of the wiki, would allow for the more capable editors an easy list of things that could use their expertise, and open communication between the creator and editors for education of wiki standards - given the current climate, an "I'm interested in making this better" or "word vomit, do with this what you will" sub-tag might also be of use.

if you read the news and village pump pages, this is what the "Research:" pages are for. Change is hard, I get it, but it had to change. It is no longer KP, it is our documentation, and the only documentation we have that will be updated at all. It has to be used by thousands of people to get reliable information.

Rozy
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 11:53:34 AM

@allereli I'm offering solutions to the current complaints. Obviously the current solution that you're offering isn't working to the best of its ability, else this conversation wouldn't be happening. Square peg, round hole and all that.

The best I can liken it to is building a sidewalk that follows a foot path, vs putting a fence to prevent use of that foot path.

Parkbandit
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 12:30:43 PM

@rozy said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@allereli I'm offering solutions to the current complaints. Obviously the current solution that you're offering isn't working to the best of its ability, else this conversation wouldn't be happening. Square peg, round hole and all that.

The best I can liken it to is building a sidewalk that follows a foot path, vs putting a fence to prevent use of that foot path.

Or.. you can put safety railings up along the footpath that forces people to follow the course for their own good.

I'm pretty sure Allereli knows what's the best course.

ArchSenex
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 12:34:00 PM

@rozy said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@allereli I'm offering solutions to the current complaints. Obviously the current solution that you're offering isn't working to the best of its ability, else this conversation wouldn't be happening. Square peg, round hole and all that.

The best I can liken it to is building a sidewalk that follows a foot path, vs putting a fence to prevent use of that foot path.

I'm having a difficult time seeing how the draft tag would be any different than the research pages, so it seems more like what's being offered are just more round holes. Rarely is the solution to people not taking a path to add more paths.

Overall, It sounds like the best answer is that if official information should only be edited by officials, then only officials (GM's) should have permission to edit it. A more robust permission scheme would be best.

Wyrom
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 12:35:52 PM

If we limit pages to ONLY be edited by GameMasters or a specific group of editors, we'll fall right back into the pitfall of the Krakiipedia. We're working on some solutions. The most important thing is not to rage the moment clarity is being asked.

ArchSenex
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 12:38:22 PM

@wyrom said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

If we limit pages to ONLY be edited by GameMasters or a specific group of editors, we'll fall right back into the pitfall of the Krakiipedia. We're working on some solutions. The most important thing is not to rage the moment clarity is being asked.

Right, but can't the permissions be set per page? If there's a policy in place that a non-gm or non-editor can be punished for editing official information, then you are already back at that pitfall, except that people get punished for trying.

allereli
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 12:45:29 PM

@rozy said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@allereli I'm offering solutions to the current complaints. Obviously the current solution that you're offering isn't working to the best of its ability, else this conversation wouldn't be happening. Square peg, round hole and all that.

The best I can liken it to is building a sidewalk that follows a foot path, vs putting a fence to prevent use of that foot path.

yes, the Research pages are about 2 weeks old, if you note the news date. I would be cautious about declaring whether or not that idea is working after such a short time.

Rozy
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 12:48:55 PM

@allereli I'm seeing this now, however the news blurb leads me to believe that it's specifically for number crunching, and not a "rough draft" for people to dump unformatted information. I can't be the only one. Kudos for putting this in place, though.

allereli
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 12:49:50 PM

@rozy said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@allereli I'm seeing this now, however the news blurb leads me to believe that it's specifically for number crunching, and not a "rough draft" for people to dump unformatted information. I can't be the only one. Kudos for putting this in place, though.

Sandbox pages have always existed. Why people don't use these more, I cannot say, but use the sandboxes. Use your user pages (see the Village Pump for current creation issues)

the existing research pages were ones I pulled out of saved posts, but you can dump numbers on them. it's fine.

Wyrom
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 1:06:18 PM

@archsenex said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@wyrom said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

If we limit pages to ONLY be edited by GameMasters or a specific group of editors, we'll fall right back into the pitfall of the Krakiipedia. We're working on some solutions. The most important thing is not to rage the moment clarity is being asked.

Right, but can't the permissions be set per page? If there's a policy in place that a non-gm or non-editor can be punished for editing official information, then you are already back at that pitfall, except that people get punished for trying.

No one has been punished for trying. There are some extreme exaggerations (still waiting for those 15-20 emails to be forwarded). Yes, there have been a few missteps and poor communication efforts in a few cases, but overall everything has been handled both professionally and with care.

Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 2:30:44 PM

I love the concept of research pages, but I totally didn't know about that enhancement/change/whatnot though. Perhaps we could get something on the front page about wiki policy/enhancements changes like that?

Wyrom
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 2:51:05 PM

It's been on the front page since August 27th.

Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 2:51:41 PM

Awesome, a perfect instance of someone NOT reading clear guidance and complaining.

allereli
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 3:01:13 PM

@whirlin said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

Awesome, a perfect instance of someone NOT reading clear guidance and complaining.

I have been writing the news items, so if I can make that blurb clearer, please let me know.

For a long time after the transfer I didn't have the ability to change anything on the front page, so I've been trying to use it to communicate updates as much as possible. I know as a user I wanted the front page to be updated for years on KP. Other than the featured article, the other sections are slow to be changed/updated, but I want to, it just takes a lot of work in the background that is slow moving.

horibu
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 3:51:00 PM

Is there a way to add links on the edit page to the GSWiki Help and Style Guide above the editor box? Would be amazing to have in bold links both of those. I know they're on the left side nav bar, but would be awesome to have something on the edit page too.

Riend
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 4:09:17 PM

@allereli said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@whirlin said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

Awesome, a perfect instance of someone NOT reading clear guidance and complaining.

I have been writing the news items, so if I can make that blurb clearer, please let me know.

For a long time after the transfer I didn't have the ability to change anything on the front page, so I've been trying to use it to communicate updates as much as possible. I know as a user I wanted the front page to be updated for years on KP. Other than the featured article, the other sections are slow to be changed/updated, but I want to, it just takes a lot of work in the background that is slow moving.

I suggest such things as: Glittery CSS effect. Ticker Tape treatment. Oversized, bolded, color-changing type - preferably rainbow-themed. Animation of any kind.

Maetriks
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 4:12:44 PM

@riend said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@allereli said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@whirlin said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

Awesome, a perfect instance of someone NOT reading clear guidance and complaining.

I have been writing the news items, so if I can make that blurb clearer, please let me know.

For a long time after the transfer I didn't have the ability to change anything on the front page, so I've been trying to use it to communicate updates as much as possible. I know as a user I wanted the front page to be updated for years on KP. Other than the featured article, the other sections are slow to be changed/updated, but I want to, it just takes a lot of work in the background that is slow moving.

I suggest such things as: Glittery CSS effect. Ticker Tape treatment. Oversized, bolded, color-changing type - preferably rainbow-themed. Animation of any kind.

Taken from MySpace 101

Mogonis
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 4:27:07 PM

Don't forget a black background and bright pink text.

allereli
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 4:28:26 PM

@riend said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@allereli said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@whirlin said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

Awesome, a perfect instance of someone NOT reading clear guidance and complaining.

I have been writing the news items, so if I can make that blurb clearer, please let me know.

For a long time after the transfer I didn't have the ability to change anything on the front page, so I've been trying to use it to communicate updates as much as possible. I know as a user I wanted the front page to be updated for years on KP. Other than the featured article, the other sections are slow to be changed/updated, but I want to, it just takes a lot of work in the background that is slow moving.

I suggest such things as: Glittery CSS effect. Ticker Tape treatment. Oversized, bolded, color-changing type - preferably rainbow-themed. Animation of any kind.

unfortunately the html tag doesn't work anymore, at least on the wiki. I tried that.

allereli
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 4:56:39 PM

@mogonis said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

Don't forget a black background and bright pink text.

0<em>1504817729878</em>Capture.JPG

better?

ArchSenex
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 5:06:35 PM

actually, a serious suggestion for the home page long-term... should there maybe be a "Contributing to the Wiki" section under getting started?

allereli
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 5:08:33 PM

@archsenex said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

actually, a serious suggestion for the home page long-term... should there maybe be a "Contributing to the Wiki" section under getting started?

that is being seriously worked on. We did a lot at Simucon on it.

Riend
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 5:25:58 PM

@allereli said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@mogonis said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

Don't forget a black background and bright pink text.

0<em>1504817729878</em>Capture.JPG

better?

This makes my eyes bleed, but I definitely would not miss it on a page.

I'm also wondering, in the age of "pretty" webdesign. Has anyone considered using button-links on the main page?

Something like "Want to contribute?" "Latest Pages" "Style Guide" and whatever you felt was the most important? This is something I'd be more than happy to help with, if you thought it would be useful. I know, from a design perspective that if a page contains % more copy over imagery, you tend to lose a lot of readers out of sheer internet-ADHD.

I'm not wiki-savvy enough to understand all the ins-and-outs, but I do a fair amount of UI/UX design.

Sabotage
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 7:36:50 PM

I think a better word and description could be used other than research. By the description and the news feed information I would never gather that this was for drafting articles.

SaltySenorita
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 8:07:26 PM

Seconding on the naming (or thirding?) being slightly misleading. I think it would be more useful if it was like WIP or drafts or something. Research and number crunching sounds to me like Whirlin-esque player guides and not necessarily like a placeholder for preliminary or unformatted info dumps. A lot of the "sandbox" and "village pump" type names on the wiki are not exactly intuitive to me as to what they're supposed to be used for, but that might just be me.

Flimbo
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 8:24:34 PM

@wyrom said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

No one has been punished for trying. There are some extreme exaggerations (still waiting for those 15-20 emails to be forwarded). Yes, there have been a few missteps and poor communication efforts in a few cases, but overall everything has been handled both professionally and with care.

I just got home. I have a full time job and a young daughter, and digging up a bunch of emails and removing my personal information from the headers so they can be posted here as it turns out is a long, boring process. But I'm doing it right now, and the first email gave me pause, because that's the one that came from your server. Here's a bit of that header:

ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; spf=softfail (google.com: domain of transitioning allereli@gmail.com does not designate 199.188.208.159 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=allereli@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Return-Path: allereli@gmail.com Received: from sire.simutronics.com (sire.simutronics.com. [199.188.208.159]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id m41si2401977qtc.237.2017.05.08.13.00.39 for noneofyourdamnbusiness@gmail.com; Mon, 08 May 2017 13:00:39 -0700 (PDT)

Notice anything? For example, like the part where you send my name and physical location to someone outside the company in plain goddamned text? No SSL headers, No ESMTPS headers. There is no E2E. No TPL. No encryption whatsoever. And you're sending it through to random people who do not work for your company. Do you see the problem with this?

Is there any defense you can come up with that in the last 20 years, not a single employee at Simutronics was able to take the time to go to a search engine and type "how to install SSL on a server"?

Because you're sending this in plain text with zero security to someone you can't verify, from someone you can't verify, you sent both my information and her information flying through wherever with no encryption at all. So if I were looking for a person named, and I'll change the names for safety here, but if I were looking for a person named..let's say, Schmernessa within a half a mile radius of longitude XXXXX latitude XXXXX in XXXXX, Simutronics just made that possible. (You're welcome for X'ing that out.)

Get your shit together.

Rest of the emails with my name and location blanked out coming as soon as I finish finding/editing.

Ordim
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 9:09:06 PM

So let me get this straight... You claim there was personal information in the HEADER or the actual body/content of the email sent?

Sabotage
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 9:14:42 PM

Just ignore him and move on.

Flimbo
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 9:16:19 PM

@ordim said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

So let me get this straight... You claim there was personal information in the HEADER or the actual body/content of the email sent?

In this case both, but the headers include my first initial and last name and IP address, sent plain text.

There are no wild accusations being thrown around when we're talking about "encrypt your email server". It's a security standard and has been for 20 years or more. There's no "so you're saying". Encrypt the mail server. It's not hard. It's not costly. It's on virtually every email server that exists for every company these days. Hell, you'd be hard pressed to find a server that's offered without it. You're sending personal information. To someone outside the company. Encrypt your mail server. In fact, I don't know the law, but I'd go so far as to say that it's probably illegal to NOT encrypt a mail server sending personal information from a company you've given it to.

allereli
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 9:18:15 PM

@sabotage

@sabotage said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

I think a better word and description could be used other than research. By the description and the news feed information I would never gather that this was for drafting articles.

sandboxes are for drafting articles... Sandboxes have ALWAYS been a thing

people wanted an easy way to dump numbers, those are research pages.

Mogonis
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 9:23:42 PM

Flimbo, let it go.

Ordim
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 9:41:56 PM

It's not even close to illegal and you are way off base with your crazy.

Sabotage
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 10:00:58 PM

In case you are unaware that little symbol next to the user's name allows you to ignore that user.

allereli
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 10:02:15 PM

@sabotage said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

In case you are unaware that little symbol next to the user's name allows you to ignore that user.

hehehe I discovered this last night when I clicked on it. I thought it was a lightning bolt or a check mark

Sabotage
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 10:12:59 PM

@Wyrom Can you or someone on staff update this page please? https://gswiki.play.net/Item_properties

It is wildly outdated now with changes to W/P/S and I wouldn't feel comfortable making changes to it.
I know quite a few people use this to decide how they are going to navigate their upgrades. So the sooner the better.

Wyrom
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 10:29:55 PM

Yes, @Sabotage, it's on the list to be updated after the W/P/S changes.

allereli
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 10:37:28 PM

@sabotage said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@Wyrom Can you or someone on staff update this page please? https://gswiki.play.net/Item_properties

It is wildly outdated now with changes to W/P/S and I wouldn't feel comfortable making changes to it.
I know quite a few people use this to decide how they are going to navigate their upgrades. So the sooner the better.

Read the official section. It is not out of date according to GM Finros. Read the edit history. If you have an issue with it, please use the talk page to spell out that issue.

With regards to the Charts section, I was messaged earlier today by someone asking about the status, so they may be working on a plan for it.

I updated the date at the top to reflect the year.

Sabotage
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 10:40:37 PM

@allereli Honestly, I don't even read the first part, I just go straight to the charts. Reading thru it though I believe Category C is outdated. I think crit and damage P/W are separate now.

Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 10:40:46 PM

I do not understand your head allegation with that e-mail... It's just forwarding a message on from your play.net e-mail address to whatever e-mail address you have tied to your account. I see some IP information and an e-mail address. I mean shit, I have more of your information than that as an admin over here. And it's not like Allereli could see the results of that correspondence anyway, and I bet anyone performing a man-in-the-middle attack, or compromised your google account could get much better IP tracing information than what's available there.

allereli
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 10:41:22 PM

@sabotage said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@allereli Honestly, I don't even read the first part, I just go straight to the charts. Reading thru it though I believe Category C is outdated. I think crit and damage P/W are separate now.

No, the edits were made according to GM Finros' instructions. Read the official section. it's very good.

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Hunting%20and%20Combat/Weapon%20and%20Armor%20Discussion/view/284

Sabotage
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 10:45:08 PM

@allereli Just to make sure I understand the wording correctly.

Cat C can have all of those plus 1 from Cat B and D?

allereli
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 10:48:22 PM

@sabotage said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@allereli Just to make sure I understand the wording correctly.

Cat C can have all of those plus 1 from Cat B and D?

that is what it says, although it may be restricted

Any number may be present; magnitude may vary in some cases; may be temporary or permanent in some cases

Sabotage
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 10:49:27 PM

You access the sandbox from the top bar? Mine gives me an error =(

allereli
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 10:50:09 PM

@sabotage said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

You access the sandbox from the top bar? Mine gives me an error =(

as I said before, please read the Village Pump for instructions. I'm not going to paste them here because I actually want people to go to the Village Pump page and use it.

https://gswiki.play.net/Gswiki:Village_pump

Roblar
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 10:50:45 PM

@sabotage said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@allereli Just to make sure I understand the wording correctly.

Cat C can have all of those plus 1 from Cat B and D?

Basically.

Though D (scripts) can now have up to two in certain combos, if one of the scripts was created taking the other script into account.

allereli
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 10:52:10 PM

@roblar said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@sabotage said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@allereli Just to make sure I understand the wording correctly.

Cat C can have all of those plus 1 from Cat B and D?

Basically.

Though D (scripts) can now have up to two in certain combos, if one of the scripts was created taking the other script into account.

See the notes section

The greatest caveat is in regard to Category D, scripts. Scripts have great flexibility in what they can do and may include the application or modification of one or more Category B items, in addition to whatever other effects they may have.

Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 10:55:22 PM

@sabotage said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

You access the sandbox from the top bar? Mine gives me an error =(

YES... I'm not the only one that can't read basic stuff!

Sabotage
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 11:01:19 PM

@whirlin I would have never thought to go to village pump for that info. Sounds like the nickname for the village whore.

allereli
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 11:21:14 PM

@sabotage said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

@whirlin I would have never thought to go to village pump for that info. Sounds like the nickname for the village whore.

I know you're joking, but the left sidebar is extremely important. if a page is linked from every single other page, it is important. Every category links back in some way to the categories on the left sidebar, so you can navigate through pretty much the entire site by starting in those categories.

Flimbo
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 11:23:11 PM

@whirlin said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

I do not understand your head allegation with that e-mail... It's just forwarding a message on from your play.net e-mail address to whatever e-mail address you have tied to your account. I see some IP information and an e-mail address. I mean shit, I have more of your information than that as an admin over here. And it's not like Allereli could see the results of that correspondence anyway, and I bet anyone performing a man-in-the-middle attack, or compromised your google account could get much better IP tracing information than what's available there.

The problem with a plain text authenticated but not encrypted doesn't really lie solely with what gets sent to the receiving mail server. That part I should say is me just not wanting Simutronics to share my name and location with someone outside of the company.

The mail server sending the mail though is authenticated but not encrypted. Now that could mean one of two things. First, it's authenticating every email sent via a set up email address @play.net which forwards messages along via the wiki, and only passes in plain text the username and password for that @play.net account. I can say for certain that this isn't entirely the case and that it is paging at least some information from the sending wiki account because the headers included allereli@gmail.com through a mail sent via play.net, which suggests that that's her email address on file via the wiki. The second scenario is that it's authenticating both the sending wiki account and that @play.net email account in order to send a message through the wiki. Now, since your wiki account is the same as your play.net account, it means the following information is being sent plain text through an unencrypted mail server:

Scenario 1: @play.net email username and password. This could be a username specifically for sending mail through the wiki, and hopefully is, or it could be David Whatley's personal email address. Not saying that's the case, but just as an example. I've seen IT people use their own email addresses in back end sendmails though. I'm not gonna try to go hacking anything to find out what that exact account is because I'm not an idiot, but that's the long and the short of what can be snooped.

Scenario 2: If both sending wiki account and @play.net email are authenticated through that plain text on the server, a person's username and password to the wiki, and subsequently to their play.net account could be snooped, revealing that person's full name, address, phone number, and whatever other information Simutronics stores in its account profile. Probably not credit card. Those do have to be encrypted by law. S'why you can only see the last four digits most places.

In either scenario, there are usernames and passwords being sent via plain text that can be snooped.

It's a security loophole, and one that's not difficult or expensive to fix since there have been standard solutions available for 20+ years. If Ordim wants to call me crazy for pointing out a security loophole in a company that until 2016 didn't require you to type your correct password to login (case sensitive didn't matter, if you recall), then yeah, I'm crazy as hell. I'd be willing to bet those old passwords were sent to the server plain text too until they fixed it.

Web security isn't a joke when you're dealing with people's personal information.

Sabotage
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 11:24:35 PM

Another quick glance, have there been changes to material properties? I didn't think a lot of the special metals were allowed to have other aspects because they were considered a script. Such as Zelnorn, kroderine, etc.

allereli
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 11:25:52 PM

@sabotage said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

Another quick glance, have there been changes to material properties? I didn't think a lot of the special metals were aloud to have other aspects because they were considered a script. Such as Zelnorn, kroderine, etc.

I think you should be having this conversation with Finros as it is his area of expertise.

you can reply here:

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Hunting%20and%20Combat/Weapon%20and%20Armor%20Discussion/view/284

I really welcome other people asking questions like yours, but answers for official documentation need to come from the people who create the game.

Sabotage
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 11:36:30 PM

@allereli Can you follow me, so I can send you a chat?

Sabotage
Friday, September 8th, 2017, 12:09:16 AM

Well I have started to make changes to the charts after reviewing the first part. If anyone has suggestions on how to format it better or something else to include, use the discussion function on the wiki on what you'd like added/changed and I'll see about getting it done.

So far I have done the weapons section and would like feedback on how it looks, as the other sections will basically be the same, before I finish the rest.

https://gswiki.play.net/User:MEKK1

ArchSenex
Friday, September 8th, 2017, 12:13:50 AM

On the flares section, does it make much sense to call out just three as non regular?

ArchSenex
Friday, September 8th, 2017, 12:15:19 AM

Also, the flares section likely needs to be tweaked if it will serve as the list for this purpose. Not all flares are... flares. At least not in that section (rot for instance)

Sabotage
Friday, September 8th, 2017, 12:22:40 AM

@archsenex I'll have to get clarification on the rare flares, does that look a bit better now?

ArchSenex
Friday, September 8th, 2017, 12:49:08 AM

@sabotage

Yup. You might also need to get clarity on polearm flares. It's the bless blocking that's the kicker. Ironwright allow blessing too.

Ordim
Friday, September 8th, 2017, 7:48:48 AM

@Flimbo Except, your username AND password are not sent in the header of an email, nor should you, or anyone else, be sending that info inside the body of an email. The wiki logins are SSL, https://gswiki.play.net/Main_Page so your login info is more likely than not being encrypted when you login to the wiki. Your local IP address is in the header because your mail host delivers it to your computer or a phone at your local IP address and tags that on the header, it doesn't exist until it has been "sent" from your mail provider to a device you own. So unless you are hosting your own mail server, at your own home address (physical and IP) AND you are using your first initial full last name as your email address, there is no one else to blame but yourself. This entire rant comes off as some drunk idiot who pissed themselves and then started yelling at the bartender that "SOMEONE PISSED ALL OVER ME" when you had in fact pissed yourself. Pisso

Friday, September 8th, 2017, 8:59:14 AM

I'm uncertain how this conversation morphed into socket layer encryption of the site or the e-mail passthroughs of play.net accounts when talking about formatting of wiki articles and professionalism/tone of moderator enforcement of their standards. Nothing about the original post was in regards to security/etc. Nor would I argue any Wiki moderator has absolutely any capacity for remediation, nor any way of positively confirming that concerns were adequately forwarded through the proper channels.

Lets get this back on track and keep crying about how Allereli is being mean to us because we don't read anything she ever writes that answers all of our questions ever.

Rozy
Friday, September 8th, 2017, 9:52:03 AM

What I don't understand is how sending emails with headers to the GMs to prove that Allereli is being a meaniehead would reveal any information that they don't already have.

Why would you even bother to attach the header information when posting it on a public site such as this?

Or could it be just another excuse as to why you'd delay sending such "proof" to the masses? It's much easier to obsfucate and point to another fault with Simutronics than own up to the fact that Allereli wasn't being a meaniehead, and you were just caught out in an embellishment of the truth.

PS: If you're able to send emails through the wiki, I'm curious how, since I have never been able to. I've always had to use my own email client which authenticates to my mail server. From there, it passes the email to play.net mx servers, which forward it to the player-submitted email address mx server and finally to their email. No wiki involvement or Simu account passwords there at all.

allereli
Friday, September 8th, 2017, 11:13:26 AM

@rozy said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

PS: If you’re able to send emails through the wiki, I’m curious how, since I have never been able to. I’ve always had to use my own email client which authenticates to my mail server. From there, it passes the email to play.net mx servers, which forward it to the player-submitted email address mx server and finally to their email. No wiki involvement or Simu account passwords there at all.

there actually is a link in the left sidebar (there's that left sidebar again) when you go to a user page, whether content exists on that page or not, to email a user through the wiki. This function is broken and I sent an email to @Wyrom about it because that will be an onsite issue and they need to decide whether or not they even want it to work.

With regards to @Flimbo, I told everyone I emailed you on May 8. I fully admit I sent one email and a follow-up response to you on that day to ask you to not use a template that was problematic with the wiki's organization (the categories), and to also offer help to come to a resolution to get the information/formatting you wanted on your guide. It is every single day since then that is at issue, so if you have an email between May 9-September 8, please post it or send to Simutronics so we can make sure that no one is trying to impersonate me.

Alastir
Friday, September 8th, 2017, 12:51:23 PM

I'm going to go with: He has no proof.

He's the little girl who cries wolf. Like, all the time. Hopefully the wolf comes and eats him soon so we don't have to hear the crying anymore.

allereli
Saturday, September 9th, 2017, 1:32:04 AM

@sabotage said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

Another quick glance, have there been changes to material properties? I didn't think a lot of the special metals were allowed to have other aspects because they were considered a script. Such as Zelnorn, kroderine, etc.

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Hunting%20and%20Combat/Weapon%20and%20Armor%20Discussion/view/299

In category A you have material properties. Does this include fancy materials such as Zelnorn, kroderine, adamantite? Or are those considered a script and would fall under Cat D?

GM Finros: I'm afraid that the answer to this question isn't entirely straightforward. Modern items are built with inherent (Category A) material properties, including for "fancy materials". Older items may have used scripts for material properties before the materials were formalized. And aside from that, even some modern "materials" are still scripts in various forms -- for example, "pure black ora" is a script while regular black ora is a standard material. In any case, the three examples you named are modern materials with inherent properties.

With regard to flares, my listing of Category B flares was complete with nothing missing. All other flares are scripts (which may or may not use the Category B slot as part of the flare script); additionally, there may be variants on the Category B flares ("greater X flares") that are actually scripts.

Sabotage
Saturday, September 9th, 2017, 2:25:21 AM

@allereli I just finished the armor and shields so it should be done.

Tei
Saturday, September 9th, 2017, 3:11:27 AM

There are some "precious" people playing this game. The amount of whinging posted on here and the official forums is getting ridiculous. "Oh no! Someone stood on my foot I better go rage about it on the officials!". It wouldn't surprise me if they do it for attention expecting others to follow with pitchforks. Whatevs.

Someone said it earlier.. what Allereli and the GM's do for us is a thankless job. It wouldn't surprise me if one day they all quit and we're left with eff all. I feel sorry for them. I'd rather master alchemy on all 21 of my characters, than have to deal with butt-hurt drama queens each day.

Maylan
Saturday, September 9th, 2017, 10:33:30 AM

Group behavior can be scary. I've now seen three threads focused on complaining about wiki moderation and to me this starts to cross a line into bullying. And it just doesn't' sit right with me. Whether you have a personal issue with Allereli or not, is this really the way you want to address it? Would you like to be in her shoes right now, the subject of bandwagoning and dog piling? At some point I feel the need to remind everyone that we are here to play a game and have fun, right?

archigeek
Saturday, September 9th, 2017, 11:09:30 AM

I think the most important thing you can do when you receive complaints is to listen. At the heart of every complaint is something you can learn from your customers, or in this case, potential contributors with lots of knowledge to share. I'm not blaming anyone, but we should all want people to be encouraged to contribute.

allereli
Saturday, September 9th, 2017, 11:59:35 AM

@archigeek said in Official: Wiki Moderation and Management:

I think the most important thing you can do when you receive complaints is to listen. At the heart of every complaint is something you can learn from your customers, or in this case, potential contributors with lots of knowledge to share. I'm not blaming anyone, but we should all want people to be encouraged to contribute.

The people who are capable of listening absolutely are encouraged to contribute. If I ask someone not to do something, I make suggestions as to how to resolve the issue so they can also get what they want and not have it be problematic to the overall site, and people still scream bloody murder. I'd rather not have to deal with these people, and staff will now lose a lot more of their time dealing with them.

eric
Saturday, September 9th, 2017, 1:02:34 PM

@evarin there's also pre-existing relationships to consider though, especially in an ancient game like this one. you had interactions with Allereli way before the wiki was even a thing, it's plausible they could color your (and others') interpretations of how she operates there

Evarin
Monday, September 11th, 2017, 11:40:32 PM

Quote from GM Kaikala: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Help%20for%20Players/WIKI%20Discussions/view/220

All I really want is some recourse when the mods are out of line. Right now the feeling is once a mod starts pushing you around you might as well go pound sand.

I replied at fair length on the wiki's Talk page of the template in question (since that's where this started) about the specific situation there. But to elaborate a little on that and then on some general items:

If something you put on the wiki is rolled back, or edited, or you're requested to edit in a specific way by any of the moderators -- the moderator is simply doing his/her job (i.e. moderating information of the wiki for both style and accuracy). If you want to discuss why that happened with the moderator, there's a Talk page for each page. You can also note -- politely and remaining within policies -- that you disagree with the edit. Just because you disagree with the edit doesn't make you "right" though.

If you've gone through the good faith communication channels, and you still feel that a moderator is out of line, then email both myself and Wyrom. Include a link to the relevant wiki pages and Talk pages involved. If some of the "talk" was done in the Slack wiki channel, include reference to that as well.

What you should NOT do is decide that you are the moderator's moderator. Re-rolling back a moderator's rollbacks and/or creating a "bypass" to essentially continue those rolled-back edits elsewhere is not an appropriate course of action. It's like going into a restaurant kitchen and taking the skillet out of the chef's hand -- so that you can cook the dish yourself -- because you don't like the recipe he's using for a particular dish, despite the fact that he's responsible for maintaining the restaurant's recipe standards and was cooking the dish in a manner that followed those -- i.e. that's not good behavior in any realm of reality.

What you should NOT do is decide that it's then also appropriate to throw that moderator to the wolves in a public forum. I have no appropriate analogy for this. But I am going to elaborate a little bit on the other side of things. I realize that people get personally invested in all of this (and I absolutely know and understand how time consuming some wiki edits are), but the amount of vulgarity and insults I've seen thrown at moderators in private communication sent to them for simply trying to do their jobs -- without those moderators ever responding in kind and yet somehow attempting to continue to work with these people -- is pretty disgraceful. Most wiki complaints that come in are people taking an edit personally rather than stepping back and looking at that what they had edited doesn't fit with the wiki style, or was against policy, or was inaccurate information, or was creating a ton of spam pages, etc. -- i.e. all things that moderators are meant to look at and attempt to correct. Moderators also suffer from that they don't have the shield of a Host or GM handle to help the players separate out their moderator responsibilities from their opinions/behaviors as a player and person -- and yet sometimes it seems like the playerbase forgets that the moderators are, in fact, people.

In this specific instance, the moderator in question (Allereli) rolled back the change and gave a specific reason for it, which she later elaborated on -- she was waiting to get some information confirmed on what was previously officially approved info. All you had to do was be patient until that info was confirmed. Your edits weren't lost -- they were still available in the History and could have easily been pulled out after the confirmation took place. Given that the page is a template used for several other pages and is part of a system that just underwent a major overhaul, it makes perfect sense that a moderator was and is keeping tabs on it.

While you may not like the answer that you're getting about this, the reality is that the moderators exist to do a specific type of work, and they're doing it. It's a lot of tedious work and dealing with a lot of different personalities. Allereli handles a massive amount of it, and yet she also manages to try and let people know when she's changed something they did and attempts to bridge editing knowledge gaps when possible. When she reaches out about wiki info/editing/etc., she's trying to help you, even if you aren't reading her words that way. The big thing here is that communication only works if all parties are engaging and understand where each party is coming from. Can we (the collective we) improve on how some of the communication for wiki work goes? Absolutely. It's a work in progress, and clearly the moderators are already well aware of that and regularly working on it (thus, items like the Research pages coming into existence).

In saying all of this, I also don't want to discount the huge number of people who help out with the wiki. A lot of of people show patience and compassion, and regularly communicate with the mods and with one another to see what needs to be done or ask how to do something so that it's fitting the wiki style, where you can contribute, etc. -- and that makes life go a lot more smoothly in wiki world.

~Kaikala, probably opening up a can of worms