Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update

Dying in GS IV is an interesting experience and its good to preserve some of that. However, it was designed back in a different world, esp a smaller and more populated one.

Today - there's so many more smaller races (forest gnomes, aleotoi, burghal), many more huntings areas, and overall bigger world. Dying in the landing area is still ok but in RR, Teras, and even EN, especially during the off peak hours - there's a lot of hoping someone is around.

But even if someone is around, the weight mechanics is too strict. As a non-fogger class, sometimes I really hate coming across a dead person or going for a rescue knowing its going to take tens of minutes or longer, just dragging, waiting, dragging, all the way to town. Sometimes its so bad, it makes me want to not help. That really is not where we want the game to go and we shouldn't punish people for helping.

I propose we significantly increase the weight limit for what races can drag. Instead of the current system, I suggest something along these lines:

1) All races can drag all other races (RP it as creating a sling or dumping them in a wheelbarrow or something) 2) RT should only be given if the race/weights are on the farthest spectrum from each other (i.e. gnomes doing krolvins/giants) 3) RT capped at 3-5 seconds per room 4) Eliminate the non-dragging room movements (i.e. can't drag them over rockslides, ice, etc - one time I was trying to drag someone thru the icemule trail and it was a horribly frustrating experience because it made me slip EVERYTIME, eventually they gave up and departed). 5) 2 people can drag any race with no RT

Considering people can walk around with 10-20 boxes weighing hundreds of pounds or items, dragging a person (not carrying) should not be a believably concern.

Please please relook into this system and make it more friendly for the community to help each other.

and we could give sorcerers a self cast animate dead so they can walk to town themselves! 1x/day!

I think it's less of a death mechanic issue and more of a "the smaller races are hosed and probably don't get an equal benefit to balance the lack of strength" issue

@allereli But this has zero effect on the smaller races - it has an effect on everyone else who encounters them. Besides, its unnecessary for a game mechanic to punish people for helping others like this.

I personally like the challenges that some areas have with death. People want things too easy IMO. But I like some of your ideas with some tweaking (like RT caps)

This is a point of RP that I think is logically founded in racial differences. These proposals are really shooting for the sky and making it a bit too easy, and removing some of the aspects of realism and immersion, in a game founded in such. While I'm not one to always preach for things like immersion, aspects such as these are important in character creations, and how you envision interactions between your characters and others.

It's also a reason to play a smaller race, people can drag your ass around.

@archsenex said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

It's also a reason to play a smaller race, people can drag your ass around.

And I don't have to drag your ass around!

I respectfully and honestly disagree. I have to add the honestly part because generally more than half of what I say is purely for comedic effect, but that's why my disagreement is honest in this case.

From a mechanical standpoint, I would agree, but that's not the only standpoint in consideration for dragging and death for me. I look at death as an RP opportunity. With a captive audience that can't run away with me and can't go afk for fear of getting knocked offline! Bwahahaha.

I play a Burghal Gnome and generally can't drag anyone for anything, of course. And hey, I shouldn't be able to drag a Giantman mechanically. Yes, in this day and age of an overall meta game, suspension of disbelief wins, but I take it another direction. Occasionally I perform stand up comedy while calling on others to come help to drag or fog. More often than not I chastise the corpse about zigging when they should have zagged. Twice I've given demonstrations and valuable lectures on how to properly punch tiny ghosts, and every single time I consider releasing the ghost of the corpse in the name of Voln out loud.

I take the mechanical hindrance of my character and turn it into a fun experience for myself, and hopefully for the corpse involved. Doing everything on rapidfire mode gets old fast.

I think dragging is a perfect opportunity to slow down and smell the roses. It can be a lot of fun.

So I'm against making it easier to script or just otherwise "get out of the way" like we do with so many other aspects of the game these days.

After post cap goals were brought up at the roundtable, one of my first thoughts was that I hope they don't exclusively have offensive and defensive bonuses in mind. If there were a post cap goal where I could get a Strength bonus that applies to dragging bodies and has no other benefit--no AS boost, no encumbrance reduction, nothing else--I'd totally go for it because it fits the character I'm portraying.

I don't think it's a necessity or anything, though. I do like that fogging to a fallen adventurer and finding out they're a giant can be a real groan while finding out they're a halfling makes me grin.

By the way, regarding this...

@darconas said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

4) Eliminate the non-dragging room movements (i.e. can't drag them over rockslides, ice, etc - one time I was trying to drag someone thru the icemule trail and it was a horribly frustrating experience because it made me slip EVERYTIME, eventually they gave up and departed).

That wasn't just bad luck, if that's what you were thinking--there are spots on the trail that are impossible to drag from.

Today - there's so many more smaller races (forest gnomes, aleotoi, burghal), many more huntings areas, and overall bigger world.

Are you calling Aelotoi small? Dems fightin words! initiates fisticuffs

@maylan said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

Today - there's so many more smaller races (forest gnomes, aleotoi, burghal), many more huntings areas, and overall bigger world.

Are you calling Aelotoi small? Dems fightin words! initiates fisticuffs

...waaait for it...let's...see if this works. Yes. Yes. I have found footage of a genuine fight Maylan has been in. You better start runnin'.

There are spells and abilities that address the issue of rescues. If dragging were to be made easier, these spells/abilities would need to be tweaked accordingly. Animate Dead and Aid the Fallen immediately come to mind.

I'm all for providing more options for making dragging easier, but there are balance issues to take into account.

It'd make sense if there was an alchemy potion that considerably aided in the dragging of others (Beyond a STR enhancer). Hell, it'd make for an interesting Arcane Spell to make things levitate slightly, including corpses, in order to aid in moving heavy things around.

The only viable mechanic would be to create a means of levitating a corpse via some potion. I'd support the argument that making 305 (White Flasks, scrolls and imbeds) capable of levitating the corpse would serve this purpose.

RP can still be accomplished without restricting classes. If your RP with a corpse is to entertain while someone more capable of rescue comes by, awesome - maybe you don't like touching corpses - whatever the case may be rescuing someone is not required. However, if you can use the 305 spell to levitate a corpse (and only a corpse) making it more easy to transport, then great. It also makes smaller race Clerics better at rescuing.

I do agree that a post-cap perk to make dragging easier, after it's earned, sounds reasonable. Or a perk for a 1x a day fog or something. While it IS a society and class bonus, it's also available to enough classes that it merits only light protection, not protection at all cost.

I'm pretty alright with dragging the way that it is. After level 30 or so, most professions have a resource to make transporting corpses feasible. The recent increase in population (that's a thing, right? It seems like there are way more people than last time I played) makes getting rescued not a big deal.

I'm okay with the dragging mechanic as-is, but I do wish certain areas were easier - ie the Icemule Trail area. Seems like a PITA to rescue from certain spots around there for a relatively low-level hunting ground.

Maybe they could even tie it to survival ranks - after a certain amount of training in survival, you are granted the ability to drag dead bodies over ice.

All dragging should be like Ewin dragging Hood at SimuCon.

Also consider implementing a fireman carry for really strong or large characters versus lighter smaller characters. I envision this when I say fireman carry.

I'm down with that, being a giantman. I should be able to throw you across chasms and stuff.

Someone has suggested before to update 511 so that if you cast 511 at a dead body, the disk encapsulates the corpse, and follows the caster. That would be an interesting. An additional wave option could be added to black crystals.

Also @Mogonis - LOL at hoodie dragging.

Am I misremembering, or were there at one time corpse sacks you could use to move dead bodies around?

@evarin

I do recall bodybags that may have been a specially scripted item. Anyone else remember anything?

I have no recollection of them, but now I want them.

I would love the option to build a body sled. Maybe do a hard build RT (like 3 minutes) or have it be something you can build in 20 RT that then gives a static 5 rt per move. Works over ice in Mule, but few other natural barriers. I don't think we should get rid of the pain, but we should have some options that can be utilized so you can at least progress through the pain.

other thoughts, chance for sled breakage based on weight/race of body being dragged. Ability to ride the sled for 0RT between rooms but a higher chance for breakage.

I could see it tied to foraging or keeping a set of supplies on you. Fashion together something based on your skills (vines for rope, branches, etc). Makes sense as a survival skill.

Just re-skin the 'child' or 'escort' movement from the AdvGuild. You 'drag' them on some sort of sled, and just have to pause for a heartbeat in each room, and they'd be trundling along calmly behind you. Rockslides, portals, the works. Heck, sell the sleds (maybe a set of 'sled plans') in the SimuCoin store or at the AdvGuild for Bounty Points, to go along with the microtransaction inclination lately.

Edited to add: I don't feel like there's a real need for this, honestly. It's why field raises are a thing. I live in Icemule primarily, and almost all the places people die, you can't drag them. That's where Minor Sanct comes so powerfully into play, along with things like 130 and Voln Fog. I kind of like that not EVERYONE can do a rescue. However, if that were to change in the direction we're discussing, I wouldn't be hardcore against it either.

Slightly off topic, but can someone explain the double voln fog needed to get from the tree to Icemule? From the tree you drag until you hit ice, then you SYM RETURN, which puts you like 3 rooms forward. If you use sym return again it says "But you are already here!" so you drag one more room to the next ice patch and SYM RETURN a second time to get into the town Voln.

Is there a reason for this, and/or what makes that room a Voln location?

Call swarm cast on a dead body should aid in dragging, but slowly. Or eat the body, 50% chance.

Aurach

1) Sorc phases dead person 2) Someone stuffs lightweight body into body bag 3) Giantman slings body bag over shoulders 4) ???? 5) Profit

Or sorcs do the limb disrupt thing to break the body into pieces so they can be carried easily. They'll get an empath's help eventually.

@mogonis said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

Or sorcs do the limb disrupt thing to break the body into pieces so they can be carried easily. They'll get an empath's help eventually.

Let's take this a step further - every dead body becomes instantly vaporized, thus appearing in the nearest town center as a pile of goo. No dragging required.

@maylan said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

@mogonis said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

Or sorcs do the limb disrupt thing to break the body into pieces so they can be carried easily. They'll get an empath's help eventually.

Let's take this a step further - every dead body becomes instantly vaporized, thus appearing in the nearest town center as a pile of goo. No dragging required.

Let's request they add 1702, Vaporize Corpse.

@mogonis said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

Or sorcs do the limb disrupt thing to break the body into pieces so they can be carried easily. They'll get an empath's help eventually.

Not speaking from experience, per say, but it's hard to drag something by the torso alone.

@evarin said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

@mogonis said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

Or sorcs do the limb disrupt thing to break the body into pieces so they can be carried easily. They'll get an empath's help eventually.

Not speaking from experience, per say, but it's hard to drag something by the torso alone.

It wouldn't be dragging at that point. I guess stuff them into a container or something.

@evarin said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

@mogonis said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

Or sorcs do the limb disrupt thing to break the body into pieces so they can be carried easily. They'll get an empath's help eventually.

Not speaking from experience, per say, but it's hard to drag something by the torso alone.

Yeah, but you can tie the Limbs to the torso, and then cross them over your own chest, and you can wear them like a backpack.

@archsenex said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

@evarin said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

@mogonis said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

Or sorcs do the limb disrupt thing to break the body into pieces so they can be carried easily. They'll get an empath's help eventually.

Not speaking from experience, per say, but it's hard to drag something by the torso alone.

Yeah, but you can tie the Limbs to the torso, and then cross them over your own chest, and you can wear them like a backpack.

Yeah, you get it! And +1 for Bob's Burgers.

Any show about New Jersey is the best kind of show. Also it's funny beyond that!

@evarin said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

@archsenex said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

@evarin said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

@mogonis said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

Or sorcs do the limb disrupt thing to break the body into pieces so they can be carried easily. They'll get an empath's help eventually.

Not speaking from experience, per say, but it's hard to drag something by the torso alone.

Yeah, but you can tie the Limbs to the torso, and then cross them over your own chest, and you can wear them like a backpack.

You people are scaring me.

just allowing the legs to be disrupted would take a lot of weight off.

Please note that sorcerers have no need to drag. We can easily animate. Just saying.

@maetriks lots of times I don't really want to go back to town, so making it easier for others to drag works for me.

@allereli said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

@maetriks lots of times I don't really want to go back to town, so making it easier for others to drag works for me.

Makes sense. I like randomly animating corpses... you know, not wearing them like a backpack.

@maetriks said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

@allereli said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

@maetriks lots of times I don't really want to go back to town, so making it easier for others to drag works for me.

Makes sense. I like randomly animating corpses... you know, not wearing them like a backpack.

Animating a dead body and ordering it around is no less creepy. It MAY be less messy. I Will concede less messy.

@archsenex said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

Animating a dead body and ordering it around is no less creepy. It MAY be less messy. I Will concede less messy.

Already having an animate also hasn't been mentioned. I'm not giving up my level 120 animate to get a body back to town.

@allereli said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

@archsenex said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

Animating a dead body and ordering it around is no less creepy. It MAY be less messy. I Will concede less messy.

Already having an animate also hasn't been mentioned. I'm not giving up my level 120 animate to get a body back to town.

I'm going to put you down as a "provisional" in the Body Bag club then

@archsenex said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

I'm going to put you down as a "provisional" in the Body Bag club then

I like the sled idea better as an item. Body bag seems a bit oog for me. I typically open a rift to the nearest town center, or if someone is lucky use my hammer for the temporary home and heal/raise there.

Already having an animate also hasn't been mentioned. I'm not giving up my level 120 animate to get a body back to town.

Let animates drag bodies, though as they are mindless undead they will probably do some harm to the corpse in the process as a trade off.

@ososis said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

Already having an animate also hasn't been mentioned. I'm not giving up my level 120 animate to get a body back to town.

Let animates drag bodies, though as they are mindless undead they will probably do some harm to the corpse in the process as a trade off.

Maybe with lores or appropriate training or whatever, an animate could drag a body to an anchored point and then return to the summoner?

@peam said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

Maybe with lores or appropriate training or whatever, an animate could drag a body to an anchored point and then return to the summoner?

get ready for wizard tears if that happens

@allereli said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

@peam said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

Maybe with lores or appropriate training or whatever, an animate could drag a body to an anchored point and then return to the summoner?

get ready for wizard tears if that happens

I was just spitballing. Now I want this.

@allereli said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

get ready for wizard tears if that happens

Posh - give it to ranger companions, wizard familiars, spirit servants, etc. Cat companions would leave claw marks (rank 1), wizard familiars would leave bite marks (rank 1, unless you really pissed the wizard off), spirit servants wouldn't leave any marks because - helpful, you see. And keep the animates mindless and causing random damage from environment, rocks/ bushes / etc.

You guys are forgetting about Aid the Fallen (1620). Corpse Punt is already Paladin domain.

https://gswiki.play.net/AidTheFallen_(1620)

Perhaps it could be allowed to gen on scrolls/magic items, or dropped to a lower slot on their spell list and they be given something a bit better instead.

That'd solve a lot of problems.

Dern paladins get all the fun.

As class-defining aspects go, moving corpses around isn't a high bar, so to speak.

Animates not included, of course.

Let's petition Goblyn / @Kaikala. She likes the dark arts. She could make dead bodies fun again.

Sawing off limbs to reduce weight would actually be an elegant solution to this problem. Carrying around limited use saws, etc.

The issue would be them futzing with bodes that already have limbs missing. The saw could just apply a buff to the person for dragging while removing the leg and giving messaging. Having to code changes to the actual corpse could be icky, but that's just speculation.

They could just take an easy route and do something to the effect of (You remove the remaining bits of the mutilated limb.) and call it a day.

Next GM auction:

@mogonis said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

Next GM auction:

Yeah, why not? Saws to lighten load, fist-scythes and what not to give a drag buff and perhaps overcome terrain-based drag blocking crap.

Plus, why do critters get to have all the fun maiming bodies? What if I wanna stumble upon a body and rip its eyeballs out for fun?

@evarin said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

As class-defining aspects go, moving corpses around isn't a high bar, so to speak.

Animates not included, of course.

@evarin I think it was in discord a day or so ago. Estild said that would be wary to allow sorcerers to self animate x/day because of 1620. So I don't know..

Self-animating sounds like you're just...alive.

Lich-Form has been discussed as a capstone spell for sorcerers, but we're already so Necro heavy it's hard to justify.

I think something that allows the same properties with a demonic bent would be ideal for 750, but that's a topic for a different thread.

I really wouldn't want to self-animate. I feel like that's a waste of a spell slot if it were to be its own spell

@allereli Me and Rolfard were talking about it at Con. We were thinking of it as just another part of 730. You would make a phylactery which would shatter when used. You would have to make another one to use it again.

I know, I know. Everyone loves components.

@mogonis So when we animate players, they are alive?! Sorcerers have a raise!

@sabotage said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

@mogonis So when we animate players, they are alive?! Sorcerers have a raise!

No. I think you didn't get my joke, but I didn't deliver it that well. Basically saying animating yourself just means you're alive.

Would also like to throw this out there, cremation, for a wizard with major fire or magic item equivalent.

However, there is a risk of collecting the ashes into a urn for transport if attempted in a particularly windy or hostile environment. If too much of the ashes disperse the character effectively departs.

Who would risk that?

@allereli said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

I really wouldn't want to self-animate. I feel like that's a waste of a spell slot if it were to be its own spell

I agree the ability would definitely have to be a perk of a larger self-augment spell than it's main purpose.

The sad truth is Death salve potions are so cheap death is meaningless unless you're dying constantly.

Just immediately depart, rub salve a few times, mana spellup and you're back in the field if you can eat the spirit loss.

...Probably need to address that issue.

@evarin said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

The sad truth is Death salve potions are so cheap death is meaningless unless you're dying constantly.

Just immediately depart, rub salve a few times, mana spellup and you're back in the field if you can eat the spirit loss.

...Probably need to address that issue.

unfortunately most people don't want a challenge these days.

@allereli said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

@evarin said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

The sad truth is Death salve potions are so cheap death is meaningless unless you're dying constantly.

Just immediately depart, rub salve a few times, mana spellup and you're back in the field if you can eat the spirit loss.

...Probably need to address that issue.

unfortunately most people don't want a challenge these days.

Ever play Bastion? It'd be neat if you could choose to assume additional penalties in exchange for larger rewards.

Dying = Automatic death sting that MUST be hunted off, but you permanently gain 1.2x EXP

etc

Rewards for dying? Now I've heard it all!

@evarin said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

Ever play?

I guarantee you the answer to that question will be no 99.9% of the time, unless you're talking card and casino games.

@mogonis said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

Rewards for dying? Now I've heard it all!

Rewards based on the fact that you'll suffer increased penalties FROM dying.

Maybe a death quest after you die, even with a cleric rezz you have to fight for your soul? Depending on how you do recovery of spirit or death's sting after a rezz or depart will be much faster.

Does symbol of submission work on reanimated players? I need mes some deference!

@ososis said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

Does symbol of submission work on reanimated players? I need mes some deference!

Nope. Sadly, all Sorcerers are not Luukos.

@god said in Death Drag Mechanic - Desperately Need Update:

Would also like to throw this out there, cremation, for a wizard with major fire or magic item equivalent.

However, there is a risk of collecting the ashes into a urn for transport if attempted in a particularly windy or hostile environment. If too much of the ashes disperse the character effectively departs.

I find this idea hilarious.